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[Music]

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hello and welcome to the show i'm martin

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willis your host uh we've got a great

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show tonight uh chris lambright i first

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had on the show i think it was back in

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like

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many times uh he he's become a really

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good friend over the years and always

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has a great view

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on certain topics he's a deep researcher

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has been doing this for

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god i think since the 70s or 80s he'll

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correct me but a long long time and uh

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so it's always fun having him on he will

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be with us tonight a little uh

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announcement

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so on the 15th i have been now

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announcing 15th of march that is i know

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this is a that's one month away from

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today um

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i've been saying that gary nolan is

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going to be on the show which he is

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and so i'm excited to have him on but

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along with him we have sean cahill

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and

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lou elizondo sean is going to be at

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lou's house they're both going to be on

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at the same time we're going to do like

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a three hour show should be a fantastic

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one so uh watch for that on march

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15th a month from today

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um the blog this week is

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um is the last one of a series of four

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that charles has done a 1976 ufo

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encounter in kentucky and this one is

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all about the evidence it actually ends

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up being pretty fascinating

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that he's you know he's explored

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all different types of uh angles on this

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particular case and there was really

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quite something to it so and there was

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kind of feuding between the different

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organizations and a little bit of

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backstabbing it's all the great stuff

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you look for in these cases

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anyway um

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hey dave altman how are you thanks for

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joining as always so uh dave always

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helps out in the chat and tells you if

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you have a question put it in caps and

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things like that and uh he is he's quite

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a personality he's got

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um

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he is a publicist and uh handles a lot

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of really great people out there a real

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good guy to know so

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i want to thank everyone that helps out

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with the show i do want to say that on

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the first march first

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is a pre-recorded show that's one show

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i'm not going to be doing live but it's

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going to go live on youtube and on the

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podcast just as if i were there i'm

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going to be off the grid i won't even be

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able to use my cell phone or anything

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for about a week or so so at that point

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that show is just going to self populate

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and play live here on youtube on march

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1st and that has

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kevin randle and albert wayne albert

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wayne told a fantastic ufo encounter and

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he's going to be talking about things

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that happened earlier

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on when he was nine years old

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and also a really weird sighting his

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mother had something like i've never

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heard before and kind of scary too and

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so he's also elaborating on the

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ufo encounter that he talked about and

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for those of you who have watched it on

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youtube uh you'll remember that everyone

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went and got ice cream that pulled over

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on i-95 and saw this incredible ufo it's

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a really bizarre thing he has quite a

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take also

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on how he thinks these things are

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kind of doing what they're doing uh and

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i thought it was interesting i sort of

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heard similar things to it but check

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that out that's march 1st anyway

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next week we have ufo jane from texas is

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going to be on the show

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and i'll be in north carolina i think on

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that day anyway i am ready to bring our

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guest in

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welcome to the show chris

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hello martin

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always great to have you on chris thanks

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so much yes and you are from the great

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state of texas you've been there for a

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while yeah all your life

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no not yet right traveling around from

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indonesia to kansas city and ended up

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that's right college at baylor and

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been in texas pretty much since except

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for a little short stint in laguna beach

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california which i should have stayed

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yeah yeah yeah so but yeah i remember

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you you you grew up with your parents uh

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missionaries or something medical

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missionaries dad was a surgeon and this

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was back in uh probably 57 when i went

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there so i was there until i was about

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10 years old and um

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story about

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the communists and a communist sign put

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in front of the baptist hospital and my

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father thought that's not what we're

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here for and he took it down and caused

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a big roar and we left within

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like five hours fast to get out of there

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before they pull the

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passports and whatnot and i have a vague

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memory of everybody standing out in the

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front of the house

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you know a lot of indonesians were

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friends i mean i'm not there was no

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issue with the indonesians themselves it

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was just some

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but you know it's like if somebody puts

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a sign up in front of your place that

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does not represent what you're what you

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think and they're there for i mean we

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were just surgeons yes it was the

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baptist mission field but

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you're there to convey that and not

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communism and it was their independence

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day that by itself wasn't an issue

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but they

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took baskets like the kind that you

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separate the rice ch wheat from the

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chaff

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woven bamboo baskets and they painted on

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the back of them nasa calm which was i

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think nationalism religion and communism

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ah that third basket was an issue for my

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father and nobody did anything

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and he said this

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is not what we're here for we can't just

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sit by and do nothing and he took that

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down and it caused a big uproar with

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some of the sympathizers running to the

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police and claiming this

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american guy did this or that and

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and it's funny not long ago i got a

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newspaper an old newspaper clipping of

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when we finally were back in the states

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at my grandparents home

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that had my parents and

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me and my brother and little bitty kids

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you know but

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i still remember

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you know that's well probably where i

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got my interest in astronomy on the roof

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of that house with a little telescope

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looking at the southern cross and

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playing out in the bamboo fields it was

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a trip

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wow had an interesting ufo sighting over

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there i did not know i remember

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something about that let's hear what

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that was i had no idea until

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probably somewhere in the last

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five ten years i

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was talking with my mother and somehow i

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happened to mention the papua new guinea

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case which occurred in 1959

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and she said oh well that was about the

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same year as

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the experience that she and my father

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and apparently a lot of other people

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including missionaries had there was

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some kind of a party going on at one

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like the mayor's house and back in those

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days you just put up a big screen

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outside if you want to shoot a throw a

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movie up so everybody's sitting out in

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the lawn

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apparently from what i recall watching

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this movie on you know on the party at

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this mayor's house

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and while they're sitting out there

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my mother's like suddenly this

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big glowing object about twice the

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height of a coconut tree which if you

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think of a telephone pole twice comes

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drifting in slowly over everyone's head

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and they look up at it and

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it was there for a moment and then it

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drifted away

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and i'm thinking what

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and apparently everyone saw it the

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strangest thing to me though was even

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though she said you know they looked and

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said wow that's a flying saucer

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or whatever the term was but

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afterwards it was as though

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i was like wait didn't you talk about

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this didn't all the missionaries that

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saw this over there there was a couple

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they drove home with the apple whites

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and it was like no nobody said a word

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i just was how come you it's so bizarre

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how i mean

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because i do this show there's so many

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times i've heard that

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and it's really bizarre something major

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like that happens and uh also you know i

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recorded with someone recently

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and basically said the same thing him

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and his girlfriend witnessed this thing

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and they never talked about it

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you know i don't i don't get it

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if something like that happens you know

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and by the way this is a father gill

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uh this is just a clip from father gill

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and that that uh back in

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1959 was that um and by the way there

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was a great video of him talking about

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it up on youtube and for some reason

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it's gone and that was such a great

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video not a few years ago

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somewhere on ebay

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somebody was selling

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the notes

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that um the other father that was here

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that did the investigation afterwards

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had come back out of the mountains after

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this occurred and heard about it and

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began to put it all into the offing of

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his name here in a minute but apparently

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it was

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pages of the sketches interviews with

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the natives and i wrote this person on

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ebay i said look

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i just cannot afford what i know this is

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worth especially to someone like me and

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he said i'll tell you what before i send

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it i'll make a copy and send it to you

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and i have a pdf copy of this thing

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and i'm telling you some of the sketches

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that are of the objects that people have

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seen

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one of them that i remember

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was

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you know if you think about we talked

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about racing but i'm like not the

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quintessential one but apparently um

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gosh i'm sorry i can't recall the other

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man's name right now who actually did

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this put this all together do you

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remember this one here the baldwin

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from australia that's amazing right

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there yeah yeah but the idea was it was

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nice to get my hands on this little

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collection that had all those sketches

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in it of what the people had drawn so

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you have multiple witnesses drawing

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their little image of it now i gotta ask

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you this

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because i'm i i search things all the

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time but how on earth did you know that

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was on ebay did someone alert you to it

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i

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you know what

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i am no i don't think i can't even

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explain just lucky serendipity

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uh you know it's almost like uh

279
00:10:36,710 --> 00:10:35,360
you know finding all the blue book files

280
00:10:39,590 --> 00:10:36,720
that somebody was trying to get rid of

281
00:10:42,069 --> 00:10:39,600
yeah in ohio yeah yeah right that guy

282
00:10:44,069 --> 00:10:42,079
i'm trying to remember his name yeah

283
00:10:45,350 --> 00:10:44,079
he wrote dave marlon awesome now

284
00:10:48,389 --> 00:10:45,360
yeah he sent me copies of that

285
00:10:50,389 --> 00:10:48,399
information it's like oh my lord

286
00:10:51,350 --> 00:10:50,399
thank god he found him where would they

287
00:10:52,870 --> 00:10:51,360
have gone

288
00:10:54,550 --> 00:10:52,880
you know if he hadn't that kind of thing

289
00:10:57,509 --> 00:10:54,560
so many things go right in the dumpster

290
00:10:59,990 --> 00:10:57,519
and they're gone forever yeah always but

291
00:11:01,990 --> 00:11:00,000
uh so while that's interesting so is

292
00:11:03,910 --> 00:11:02,000
that kind of what sparked your interest

293
00:11:05,670 --> 00:11:03,920
in this topic to begin with did they

294
00:11:07,430 --> 00:11:05,680
talk about it it's funny it's funny that

295
00:11:09,110 --> 00:11:07,440
just came up the other day

296
00:11:10,470 --> 00:11:09,120
to decide what it was sorry i'm trying

297
00:11:12,790 --> 00:11:10,480
to get rid of that

298
00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:12,800
what it was and

299
00:11:16,150 --> 00:11:14,800
i thought about the times in indonesia

300
00:11:17,750 --> 00:11:16,160
when i used to go out with my little

301
00:11:19,670 --> 00:11:17,760
telescope crawl up on the roof where my

302
00:11:20,870 --> 00:11:19,680
mother would have killed me and sit up

303
00:11:23,190 --> 00:11:20,880
there and

304
00:11:25,430 --> 00:11:23,200
but the really the first memory that i

305
00:11:27,430 --> 00:11:25,440
have and i'm sure this is boring to your

306
00:11:29,430 --> 00:11:27,440
audience everybody's got a story was

307
00:11:31,350 --> 00:11:29,440
probably in the seventh grade there was

308
00:11:33,670 --> 00:11:31,360
some kind of a debate and for some

309
00:11:35,990 --> 00:11:33,680
reason there was about five of us and it

310
00:11:37,430 --> 00:11:36,000
was going to be on the subject of ufos

311
00:11:38,790 --> 00:11:37,440
flying saucers so i was kind of the

312
00:11:40,790 --> 00:11:38,800
moderator and there was the pro and the

313
00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:40,800
con side back and forth

314
00:11:44,790 --> 00:11:43,120
and i remembered vaguely you know

315
00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:44,800
making up some trick pictures you know

316
00:11:48,310 --> 00:11:46,560
i'd take a frisbee cover with tinfoil my

317
00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:48,320
dad would throw it up we'd take the you

318
00:11:51,430 --> 00:11:50,560
know all that kind of stuff that you did

319
00:11:52,870 --> 00:11:51,440
but then

320
00:11:56,230 --> 00:11:52,880
so you're

321
00:11:58,949 --> 00:11:56,240
you're a hoaxer from the very beginning

322
00:12:00,310 --> 00:11:58,959
i was a moderator and but actually i

323
00:12:01,509 --> 00:12:00,320
think the first time

324
00:12:03,350 --> 00:12:01,519
actually when the first time i ever went

325
00:12:05,509 --> 00:12:03,360
to a conference

326
00:12:07,990 --> 00:12:05,519
was in kansas city this was had to have

327
00:12:10,629 --> 00:12:08,000
been back in the 60s and for some reason

328
00:12:12,550 --> 00:12:10,639
i remember i knew heineck was there i

329
00:12:14,629 --> 00:12:12,560
didn't know him of course and i vaguely

330
00:12:16,550 --> 00:12:14,639
remember seeing him walk by

331
00:12:19,590 --> 00:12:16,560
but somewhere back there

332
00:12:20,870 --> 00:12:19,600
when i was in high school or junior high

333
00:12:22,710 --> 00:12:20,880
seventh grade

334
00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:22,720
it's been since then you know i was in

335
00:12:27,110 --> 00:12:24,880
the rocket club too where you me that's

336
00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:27,120
just rockets and all of that so far i've

337
00:12:31,910 --> 00:12:29,760
done that the whole gamut i guess

338
00:12:34,470 --> 00:12:31,920
just like everybody else

339
00:12:37,269 --> 00:12:34,480
yeah yeah this one so i know

340
00:12:39,350 --> 00:12:37,279
yeah and that's great i'm glad it did um

341
00:12:41,509 --> 00:12:39,360
a lot of people you know that

342
00:12:43,670 --> 00:12:41,519
have never had a sighting that do such

343
00:12:46,389 --> 00:12:43,680
great work you know you think about it i

344
00:12:47,190 --> 00:12:46,399
mean i just happen to have a sighting

345
00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:47,200
but

346
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:49,360
um i don't know i guess that's really

347
00:12:53,350 --> 00:12:51,120
how i got into it i started looking at

348
00:12:54,790 --> 00:12:53,360
it more and found it interesting but

349
00:12:56,310 --> 00:12:54,800
otherwise i would have just gone through

350
00:12:58,550 --> 00:12:56,320
life and thought it would be an

351
00:13:01,269 --> 00:12:58,560
interesting topic and never really you

352
00:13:02,710 --> 00:13:01,279
know do do anything on it like this but

353
00:13:05,030 --> 00:13:02,720
think of all the people that have never

354
00:13:07,350 --> 00:13:05,040
had a sighting that are just great you

355
00:13:09,910 --> 00:13:07,360
know investigators you know and i mean

356
00:13:11,190 --> 00:13:09,920
there's many many many i've seen and why

357
00:13:12,790 --> 00:13:11,200
i thought was weird but it's not

358
00:13:14,069 --> 00:13:12,800
anything i would talk about because even

359
00:13:15,269 --> 00:13:14,079
i could say it could have been a trick

360
00:13:16,710 --> 00:13:15,279
of my vision

361
00:13:18,310 --> 00:13:16,720
so it wasn't profound i mean it was

362
00:13:19,269 --> 00:13:18,320
nothing close up or anything like that

363
00:13:23,030 --> 00:13:19,279
but

364
00:13:24,550 --> 00:13:23,040
talk to people and

365
00:13:25,829 --> 00:13:24,560
it was a comment i heard on a recent

366
00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:25,839
interview with diana pasoka where

367
00:13:28,949 --> 00:13:27,600
jacques vale had talked to her about

368
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:28,959
discernment

369
00:13:32,550 --> 00:13:30,720
you don't trust everything don't believe

370
00:13:34,790 --> 00:13:32,560
anything but use your discernment and at

371
00:13:37,110 --> 00:13:34,800
some point just like having a chance

372
00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:37,120
finally to talk to lani zamora and you

373
00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:38,720
cross the facts in the book and you hear

374
00:13:42,310 --> 00:13:40,800
what he said and you discern and

375
00:13:44,069 --> 00:13:42,320
at some point you find there are people

376
00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:44,079
who are

377
00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:45,760
by all accounts of anything telling you

378
00:13:49,670 --> 00:13:47,040
the straight truth of what they

379
00:13:50,790 --> 00:13:49,680
witnessed and you can't set that aside

380
00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:50,800
so

381
00:13:53,829 --> 00:13:52,160
yeah yeah

382
00:13:55,030 --> 00:13:53,839
yeah i love that type of thing and and

383
00:13:56,629 --> 00:13:55,040
that's uh

384
00:13:58,310 --> 00:13:56,639
that's one of the things that keeps me

385
00:14:00,389 --> 00:13:58,320
going i love to talk to people who have

386
00:14:02,069 --> 00:14:00,399
never told their story before that's

387
00:14:04,069 --> 00:14:02,079
always really exciting to me and i've

388
00:14:06,629 --> 00:14:04,079
been in touch with a few people lately

389
00:14:09,030 --> 00:14:06,639
i'm gonna try to get someone on the show

390
00:14:11,509 --> 00:14:09,040
that had a very interesting story

391
00:14:13,110 --> 00:14:11,519
that that to me i mean

392
00:14:14,710 --> 00:14:13,120
another thing i know i've said this a

393
00:14:17,189 --> 00:14:14,720
couple times on the show before but when

394
00:14:19,350 --> 00:14:17,199
something happens that's really weird

395
00:14:21,509 --> 00:14:19,360
i like that even better it seems it

396
00:14:23,509 --> 00:14:21,519
seems even more authentic because it's

397
00:14:25,430 --> 00:14:23,519
there are so many unusual things that

398
00:14:27,430 --> 00:14:25,440
happen in this

399
00:14:29,910 --> 00:14:27,440
i mean these encounters

400
00:14:33,189 --> 00:14:29,920
that's and well when you call it ufos

401
00:14:35,110 --> 00:14:33,199
uaps which is really non-defined

402
00:14:36,870 --> 00:14:35,120
and then it opens up the doors to all

403
00:14:39,189 --> 00:14:36,880
sorts of just

404
00:14:39,829 --> 00:14:39,199
generally weird experiences people have

405
00:14:41,670 --> 00:14:39,839
and

406
00:14:43,110 --> 00:14:41,680
not to discount any of them i mean not

407
00:14:44,550 --> 00:14:43,120
every you know yeah not everything is

408
00:14:46,310 --> 00:14:44,560
part of the same thing

409
00:14:47,670 --> 00:14:46,320
but it certainly does suggest there's a

410
00:14:49,509 --> 00:14:47,680
lot more in this

411
00:14:50,870 --> 00:14:49,519
our reality

412
00:14:52,310 --> 00:14:50,880
than we have

413
00:14:54,550 --> 00:14:52,320
has been dreamt of

414
00:14:57,030 --> 00:14:54,560
so to speak that's right yeah i think we

415
00:14:59,509 --> 00:14:57,040
know just a little tiny bit about

416
00:15:01,750 --> 00:14:59,519
everything you know we're there we still

417
00:15:02,949 --> 00:15:01,760
so much to know um i don't know where

418
00:15:03,670 --> 00:15:02,959
you want to go we're going to be talking

419
00:15:06,150 --> 00:15:03,680
about

420
00:15:08,389 --> 00:15:06,160
several different things tonight and one

421
00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:08,399
of the topics i know that we wanted to

422
00:15:12,310 --> 00:15:09,920
touch on is

423
00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:12,320
kind of the ufo belief system i don't

424
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:13,839
know if you want to get that out of the

425
00:15:16,790 --> 00:15:14,800
way

426
00:15:17,509 --> 00:15:16,800
yeah i remember i mean i want to talk

427
00:15:19,910 --> 00:15:17,519
about

428
00:15:21,509 --> 00:15:19,920
paul benowitz case i always love talking

429
00:15:24,069 --> 00:15:21,519
about that that's a fascinating one to

430
00:15:26,389 --> 00:15:24,079
me um socorro is another one those are

431
00:15:27,910 --> 00:15:26,399
you did that wonderful book that's how i

432
00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:27,920
first got in touch with you in the very

433
00:15:32,790 --> 00:15:30,000
beginning um that you

434
00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:32,800
um x descending is that the name of that

435
00:15:36,470 --> 00:15:34,320
yes yeah

436
00:15:37,590 --> 00:15:36,480
very well done yeah well i appreciate it

437
00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:37,600
i probably should go try to get that

438
00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:39,360
darn thing printed one of these days

439
00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:40,800
just to have it done but i always want

440
00:15:44,790 --> 00:15:42,720
the pictures to pop you know to look so

441
00:15:47,189 --> 00:15:44,800
good and on a computer or a pdf with the

442
00:15:48,790 --> 00:15:47,199
image you get a chance to zoom in and

443
00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:48,800
that kind of thing so that was yeah it

444
00:15:52,310 --> 00:15:50,560
was one of my drawbacks

445
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:52,320
but um yeah yeah i remember you

446
00:15:55,829 --> 00:15:54,480
mentioned the beliefs issue after the

447
00:15:57,749 --> 00:15:55,839
anniversary show

448
00:15:59,350 --> 00:15:57,759
as something right and

449
00:16:01,350 --> 00:15:59,360
that

450
00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:01,360
certainly in the last year and a half

451
00:16:05,189 --> 00:16:03,440
now we've seen a whole lot of different

452
00:16:07,110 --> 00:16:05,199
things about how people's beliefs tend

453
00:16:08,949 --> 00:16:07,120
to affect or influence

454
00:16:10,790 --> 00:16:08,959
you know their actions

455
00:16:13,430 --> 00:16:10,800
even when it's

456
00:16:15,749 --> 00:16:13,440
an unfounded belief or in some cases you

457
00:16:16,790 --> 00:16:15,759
realize they've not really delved into

458
00:16:18,389 --> 00:16:16,800
it

459
00:16:21,590 --> 00:16:18,399
and

460
00:16:23,590 --> 00:16:21,600
was working on the book

461
00:16:25,110 --> 00:16:23,600
i put a chapter in there that no one

462
00:16:27,430 --> 00:16:25,120
ever mentions but it was called

463
00:16:29,430 --> 00:16:27,440
knowledge versus beliefs

464
00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:29,440
and had some information about the

465
00:16:33,110 --> 00:16:32,000
epistemology and how we form what we

466
00:16:36,710 --> 00:16:33,120
considered

467
00:16:37,910 --> 00:16:36,720
you know informed beliefs versus

468
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:37,920
things that are

469
00:16:41,189 --> 00:16:39,920
not informed but that you prefer

470
00:16:43,590 --> 00:16:41,199
the people want to believe certain

471
00:16:46,230 --> 00:16:43,600
things it's more exciting

472
00:16:47,910 --> 00:16:46,240
and and i get that i mean i do you know

473
00:16:50,150 --> 00:16:47,920
that's why i want to one thing i always

474
00:16:53,189 --> 00:16:50,160
want to make a point of just now up

475
00:16:54,949 --> 00:16:53,199
front is anything i say is my opinion

476
00:16:56,710 --> 00:16:54,959
you don't have to believe any of it in

477
00:16:58,069 --> 00:16:56,720
other words people can choose to believe

478
00:16:59,829 --> 00:16:58,079
whatever they want

479
00:17:01,670 --> 00:16:59,839
um i'm a big

480
00:17:05,189 --> 00:17:01,680
i almost caught myself saying i'm a big

481
00:17:08,390 --> 00:17:05,199
believer i'm a i tend to think that

482
00:17:10,230 --> 00:17:08,400
a person should be willing to at least

483
00:17:12,390 --> 00:17:10,240
you know do a deep dive drill down on

484
00:17:14,069 --> 00:17:12,400
your own beliefs be honest with yourself

485
00:17:16,789 --> 00:17:14,079
about why you hold that

486
00:17:18,309 --> 00:17:16,799
so you can know is it a preference

487
00:17:20,710 --> 00:17:18,319
because some beliefs i think leave it

488
00:17:23,429 --> 00:17:20,720
alone you know but other beliefs

489
00:17:25,669 --> 00:17:23,439
that end up propagating or end up

490
00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:25,679
people act on it because they want it to

491
00:17:27,829 --> 00:17:26,720
be

492
00:17:29,029 --> 00:17:27,839
and

493
00:17:31,430 --> 00:17:29,039
you don't know what's the difference

494
00:17:32,950 --> 00:17:31,440
between somebody who's simply mistaken

495
00:17:34,470 --> 00:17:32,960
or somebody who's

496
00:17:36,630 --> 00:17:34,480
a sociopath

497
00:17:38,470 --> 00:17:36,640
who is really going to just lead you

498
00:17:40,150 --> 00:17:38,480
down to what you want to you know he

499
00:17:41,669 --> 00:17:40,160
wants you to do

500
00:17:44,630 --> 00:17:41,679
because the more people that follow the

501
00:17:47,750 --> 00:17:44,640
more he begins securing his own belief

502
00:17:49,270 --> 00:17:47,760
and it's kind of a snowball yeah yeah

503
00:17:51,029 --> 00:17:49,280
and i said well you know that i'm afraid

504
00:17:53,909 --> 00:17:51,039
and ufology perhaps

505
00:17:55,990 --> 00:17:53,919
yeah i do too and you know there's

506
00:17:57,430 --> 00:17:56,000
i do listen to this podcast it's called

507
00:17:59,110 --> 00:17:57,440
the hidden brain

508
00:18:01,350 --> 00:17:59,120
and it there's some really great

509
00:18:04,549 --> 00:18:01,360
episodes and one of them was on beliefs

510
00:18:08,070 --> 00:18:04,559
and ironically it started out about a

511
00:18:08,870 --> 00:18:08,080
ufo it started out not about a ufo but

512
00:18:11,590 --> 00:18:08,880
that

513
00:18:14,630 --> 00:18:11,600
the aliens were coming to take

514
00:18:17,470 --> 00:18:14,640
a certain group of people away with them

515
00:18:20,470 --> 00:18:17,480
to a better place and this was in the

516
00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:20,480
1960s and all these people quit their

517
00:18:24,310 --> 00:18:21,520
jobs

518
00:18:25,029 --> 00:18:24,320
and then it was supposed to land at you

519
00:18:26,390 --> 00:18:25,039
know

520
00:18:27,590 --> 00:18:26,400
say march

521
00:18:33,029 --> 00:18:27,600
12th

522
00:18:35,750 --> 00:18:33,039
was an excuse and the people still hang

523
00:18:37,990 --> 00:18:35,760
on to that belief and no matter what was

524
00:18:40,070 --> 00:18:38,000
happening people were just basically

525
00:18:41,669 --> 00:18:40,080
starving they lost everything

526
00:18:42,390 --> 00:18:41,679
and they were just waiting to get picked

527
00:18:44,390 --> 00:18:42,400
up

528
00:18:46,549 --> 00:18:44,400
and it just kept going on and on and

529
00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:46,559
every time it didn't show up there was

530
00:18:51,110 --> 00:18:48,720
another excuse and everyone believed it

531
00:18:52,789 --> 00:18:51,120
was still going to happen

532
00:18:54,830 --> 00:18:52,799
it was still going down afraid it's like

533
00:18:57,029 --> 00:18:54,840
if you've gone so far the wrong

534
00:18:58,230 --> 00:18:57,039
direction it's tough you're afraid to

535
00:19:00,150 --> 00:18:58,240
turn around

536
00:19:01,590 --> 00:19:00,160
yeah and i'm at some point though you

537
00:19:03,430 --> 00:19:01,600
have no choice if you're being honest to

538
00:19:04,630 --> 00:19:03,440
yourself you don't just keep going

539
00:19:06,390 --> 00:19:04,640
because

540
00:19:08,710 --> 00:19:06,400
but yeah that's

541
00:19:10,310 --> 00:19:08,720
it's a tough call to understand why

542
00:19:11,909 --> 00:19:10,320
people

543
00:19:13,430 --> 00:19:11,919
want to believe the things they want to

544
00:19:15,110 --> 00:19:13,440
believe

545
00:19:17,590 --> 00:19:15,120
and i think it's i think it should be

546
00:19:19,590 --> 00:19:17,600
important that we all admit to ourselves

547
00:19:21,430 --> 00:19:19,600
you know there's three different words

548
00:19:23,110 --> 00:19:21,440
you have things that you know things

549
00:19:24,789 --> 00:19:23,120
that you think and things that you

550
00:19:25,750 --> 00:19:24,799
believe

551
00:19:27,590 --> 00:19:25,760
and they're three different words

552
00:19:29,350 --> 00:19:27,600
because they're different things

553
00:19:31,190 --> 00:19:29,360
and we shouldn't confuse

554
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:31,200
what we believe with what we know i mean

555
00:19:34,390 --> 00:19:32,640
i may think a lot of things but then

556
00:19:36,070 --> 00:19:34,400
it's safe if i'm wrong because i can

557
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:36,080
always change what i think based on new

558
00:19:39,029 --> 00:19:37,440
information

559
00:19:40,950 --> 00:19:39,039
things that we know if all you know is

560
00:19:42,310 --> 00:19:40,960
what someone else told you

561
00:19:43,990 --> 00:19:42,320
you know that's my saying you don't

562
00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:44,000
really know anything you have a lot of

563
00:19:48,310 --> 00:19:45,520
things that you've heard

564
00:19:49,909 --> 00:19:48,320
but belief when it becomes

565
00:19:51,430 --> 00:19:49,919
things that people have committed to so

566
00:19:53,350 --> 00:19:51,440
much i'm afraid

567
00:19:55,430 --> 00:19:53,360
that you don't want to

568
00:19:56,950 --> 00:19:55,440
change or you or you trust your own

569
00:19:57,909 --> 00:19:56,960
opinion and you don't want to be proven

570
00:20:00,150 --> 00:19:57,919
wrong

571
00:20:02,230 --> 00:20:00,160
and so you fight to the wall

572
00:20:04,950 --> 00:20:02,240
and let's just let's just kind of

573
00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:04,960
clarify what we're talking about because

574
00:20:09,350 --> 00:20:08,000
we're we're not talking about um

575
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:09,360
the the quote

576
00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:11,760
unquote do you believe in ufos we're not

577
00:20:15,430 --> 00:20:13,520
talking about that because there's

578
00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:15,440
enough evidence everyone that's

579
00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:18,240
listening to the show knows that ufos

580
00:20:21,590 --> 00:20:19,520
um

581
00:20:23,590 --> 00:20:21,600
happen but whether

582
00:20:25,909 --> 00:20:23,600
we're going to say what they are or not

583
00:20:29,110 --> 00:20:25,919
you know we're not going to do that but

584
00:20:30,470 --> 00:20:29,120
it's not like we're believing in ufos

585
00:20:31,990 --> 00:20:30,480
that's not what we're talking about

586
00:20:34,070 --> 00:20:32,000
we're talking about when someone goes

587
00:20:37,190 --> 00:20:34,080
down a rabbit hole on a certain

588
00:20:39,750 --> 00:20:37,200
situation and they they just keep going

589
00:20:41,510 --> 00:20:39,760
because they can't turn around uh

590
00:20:43,669 --> 00:20:41,520
they've gone too far there's too much of

591
00:20:45,669 --> 00:20:43,679
themselves invested

592
00:20:47,590 --> 00:20:45,679
that type of thing yeah and two things

593
00:20:48,870 --> 00:20:47,600
two things that i've noticed one is that

594
00:20:50,549 --> 00:20:48,880
quite often

595
00:20:53,270 --> 00:20:50,559
a person who

596
00:20:55,270 --> 00:20:53,280
is insecure in their belief

597
00:20:56,470 --> 00:20:55,280
becomes defensive and begins to feel

598
00:20:58,230 --> 00:20:56,480
challenged if someone does not

599
00:21:00,950 --> 00:20:58,240
immediately go along with it

600
00:21:03,669 --> 00:21:00,960
that's a that's a concern right there

601
00:21:05,350 --> 00:21:03,679
but the idea of a conviction

602
00:21:06,789 --> 00:21:05,360
like you were bringing up before i've

603
00:21:08,230 --> 00:21:06,799
never seen anything that i would tell

604
00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:08,240
anybody

605
00:21:12,390 --> 00:21:11,200
qualified as what i consider you know a

606
00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:12,400
ufo

607
00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:19,270
but as best

608
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:21,760
as as well as i've been able to

609
00:21:25,430 --> 00:21:23,840
make decisions based on reasonable

610
00:21:27,110 --> 00:21:25,440
thinking and decide what's right or

611
00:21:27,830 --> 00:21:27,120
wrong like a jury would be required to

612
00:21:30,390 --> 00:21:27,840
do

613
00:21:31,990 --> 00:21:30,400
you develop a conviction and so i have a

614
00:21:33,830 --> 00:21:32,000
conviction that yes there's something to

615
00:21:35,990 --> 00:21:33,840
this i wish we had a better description

616
00:21:39,110 --> 00:21:36,000
than ufo because i'm afraid it's a

617
00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:39,120
catch-all phrase that now like uap

618
00:21:42,870 --> 00:21:40,960
now they can slide drones in there and

619
00:21:44,870 --> 00:21:42,880
that just adds begins to muddy the

620
00:21:45,830 --> 00:21:44,880
waters of what we're talking about

621
00:21:47,029 --> 00:21:45,840
um

622
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:47,039
i realized you'd need some

623
00:21:50,549 --> 00:21:48,480
characteristics to make a better just

624
00:21:52,549 --> 00:21:50,559
you know a better definition or a better

625
00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:52,559
phrase that you could term it

626
00:21:56,310 --> 00:21:54,240
but there should be some way to

627
00:21:57,750 --> 00:21:56,320
distinguish between

628
00:21:59,350 --> 00:21:57,760
something that

629
00:22:01,830 --> 00:21:59,360
looks like a drone could be a drone

630
00:22:03,190 --> 00:22:01,840
might be a drone which

631
00:22:04,549 --> 00:22:03,200
really does shouldn't necessarily

632
00:22:07,110 --> 00:22:04,559
automatically be inserted into the

633
00:22:09,190 --> 00:22:07,120
database of ufo phenomena just because

634
00:22:10,470 --> 00:22:09,200
you weren't sure what it was

635
00:22:12,549 --> 00:22:10,480
but on the other hand there's going to

636
00:22:14,230 --> 00:22:12,559
be instances that i've seen a few where

637
00:22:16,470 --> 00:22:14,240
you hear the people referring to it well

638
00:22:18,549 --> 00:22:16,480
it's acting like a drone

639
00:22:20,390 --> 00:22:18,559
wow that might very well cover a whole

640
00:22:22,390 --> 00:22:20,400
lot of things that were genuine ufo

641
00:22:23,909 --> 00:22:22,400
phenomenon so to speak

642
00:22:26,310 --> 00:22:23,919
and it gets dismissed yeah somebody

643
00:22:28,630 --> 00:22:26,320
calls it a drone or a uap or something

644
00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:28,640
like that so it's it's tough right and

645
00:22:33,190 --> 00:22:30,720
um i'm trying to see

646
00:22:35,669 --> 00:22:33,200
no i had my

647
00:22:36,950 --> 00:22:35,679
oh yes i have a i have i'm gonna just

648
00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:36,960
show this clip i've showed it a few

649
00:22:51,760 --> 00:23:02,870
all right

650
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:11,350
but that's not

651
00:23:14,710 --> 00:23:13,350
jeez

652
00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:14,720
this is

653
00:23:18,870 --> 00:23:16,960
unbelievable

654
00:23:20,230 --> 00:23:18,880
those little things moving around that's

655
00:23:22,390 --> 00:23:20,240
just the

656
00:23:24,149 --> 00:23:22,400
street lights and the lens

657
00:23:35,029 --> 00:23:24,159
but this red thing

658
00:23:38,789 --> 00:23:36,630
well anyway i'm pretty sure it was a

659
00:23:41,590 --> 00:23:38,799
drone

660
00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:41,600
but i i ran over to where it should have

661
00:23:43,669 --> 00:23:42,720
landed

662
00:23:45,029 --> 00:23:43,679
and

663
00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:45,039
you know there was one car in the

664
00:23:48,710 --> 00:23:47,120
parking lot i didn't see the people

665
00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:48,720
but i don't know

666
00:23:52,310 --> 00:23:50,640
i don't know what it was but that's yeah

667
00:23:53,909 --> 00:23:52,320
to me that's a tough one i was noting

668
00:23:55,430 --> 00:23:53,919
how fast it was going and it was seemed

669
00:23:57,510 --> 00:23:55,440
to be going parallel so you know my

670
00:23:59,750 --> 00:23:57,520
mind's immediately beginning to filter

671
00:24:01,029 --> 00:23:59,760
out potential explanations as it goes

672
00:24:03,029 --> 00:24:01,039
along but you're right i have no idea

673
00:24:05,190 --> 00:24:03,039
what it was and well it was very high

674
00:24:06,789 --> 00:24:05,200
wind that night too and i guess that

675
00:24:07,909 --> 00:24:06,799
doesn't matter if you're flying a drone

676
00:24:09,190 --> 00:24:07,919
i don't know

677
00:24:11,510 --> 00:24:09,200
well it depends on what kind of drone it

678
00:24:13,350 --> 00:24:11,520
might have been was it a yeah standard

679
00:24:15,830 --> 00:24:13,360
four-engine drone was it a

680
00:24:17,430 --> 00:24:15,840
air aircraft flyer trite jones with a

681
00:24:18,789 --> 00:24:17,440
bright but yeah

682
00:24:19,909 --> 00:24:18,799
at the end of the day this is where i

683
00:24:22,070 --> 00:24:19,919
come down and say i'm not going to

684
00:24:24,950 --> 00:24:22,080
dismiss that kind of information at all

685
00:24:26,630 --> 00:24:24,960
you put it in there and hang on to it

686
00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:26,640
but at the end of the day what can you

687
00:24:30,470 --> 00:24:28,640
know you're right you really there's

688
00:24:32,789 --> 00:24:30,480
nothing specific or definitive more you

689
00:24:34,230 --> 00:24:32,799
can do with it so it just kind of

690
00:24:36,630 --> 00:24:34,240
becomes another one of those cases that

691
00:24:37,990 --> 00:24:36,640
you hang on to in case something else

692
00:24:40,390 --> 00:24:38,000
turns up

693
00:24:43,830 --> 00:24:40,400
but when i begin dave altman says it's

694
00:24:45,990 --> 00:24:43,840
aliens he's right yeah

695
00:24:48,070 --> 00:24:46,000
well you know it's i'm glad this is this

696
00:24:49,190 --> 00:24:48,080
is funny because when i had my

697
00:24:52,789 --> 00:24:49,200
um

698
00:24:54,149 --> 00:24:52,799
my first real you know has to be a ufo i

699
00:24:55,110 --> 00:24:54,159
mean i don't know what should we call it

700
00:24:57,669 --> 00:24:55,120
but i

701
00:24:59,990 --> 00:24:57,679
i didn't think it was from here when i

702
00:25:02,870 --> 00:25:00,000
saw it but i if i had a camera then i

703
00:25:05,029 --> 00:25:02,880
would have never even thought to grab it

704
00:25:06,870 --> 00:25:05,039
but this time i feel like

705
00:25:08,789 --> 00:25:06,880
i was ready you know

706
00:25:11,190 --> 00:25:08,799
as soon as i saw it i reached for my for

707
00:25:13,350 --> 00:25:11,200
my uh phone and grabbed my phone and i

708
00:25:15,750 --> 00:25:13,360
think that's you know kind of like ray

709
00:25:18,230 --> 00:25:15,760
you know ray stanford he says he never

710
00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:18,240
goes anywhere without a a camera with

711
00:25:21,029 --> 00:25:20,000
him he has it for years it pays to be

712
00:25:22,149 --> 00:25:21,039
ready i was talking to a friend the

713
00:25:23,269 --> 00:25:22,159
other day thinking you know you need to

714
00:25:25,510 --> 00:25:23,279
program your phone with a voice

715
00:25:27,350 --> 00:25:25,520
recognition where you just say video on

716
00:25:28,789 --> 00:25:27,360
and it immediately starts recording so

717
00:25:30,149 --> 00:25:28,799
i'm not sitting there fumbling with the

718
00:25:32,710 --> 00:25:30,159
buttons trying to get to the video

719
00:25:34,390 --> 00:25:32,720
screen if you can quickly turn it on

720
00:25:35,669 --> 00:25:34,400
but yeah i mean these days especially

721
00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:35,679
with the resolutions of some of the

722
00:25:38,390 --> 00:25:37,600
cameras on the new cell phones coming

723
00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:38,400
out

724
00:25:41,750 --> 00:25:40,320
there's some incredible footage that we

725
00:25:43,750 --> 00:25:41,760
should be able to get

726
00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:43,760
unless the entire sentences are aware in

727
00:25:47,350 --> 00:25:45,360
which case they're just going to stay

728
00:25:49,269 --> 00:25:47,360
too high or at night

729
00:25:50,870 --> 00:25:49,279
or stay in the ocean

730
00:25:52,149 --> 00:25:50,880
too many people with cell phones these

731
00:25:53,590 --> 00:25:52,159
days

732
00:25:55,029 --> 00:25:53,600
well you know it's it's kind of funny

733
00:25:57,350 --> 00:25:55,039
you say that because

734
00:25:59,750 --> 00:25:57,360
sometimes i wonder about that you know

735
00:26:01,669 --> 00:25:59,760
it seems like people are

736
00:26:04,230 --> 00:26:01,679
you know a lot of times people will say

737
00:26:06,549 --> 00:26:04,240
like something happened to their camera

738
00:26:07,909 --> 00:26:06,559
or you know the battery failed or or

739
00:26:10,390 --> 00:26:07,919
something like that

740
00:26:12,549 --> 00:26:10,400
and it really makes you wonder you know

741
00:26:15,110 --> 00:26:12,559
i mean how intelligent would something

742
00:26:17,430 --> 00:26:15,120
have to be to know to disable

743
00:26:19,909 --> 00:26:17,440
something to record them i mean they

744
00:26:21,750 --> 00:26:19,919
would well i mean it's quite incredible

745
00:26:23,750 --> 00:26:21,760
yeah when we're yeah we're going after

746
00:26:25,350 --> 00:26:23,760
bin laden we know right where all the

747
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:25,360
radars and all the other units are and

748
00:26:28,630 --> 00:26:26,720
you see the helicopter flying this kind

749
00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:28,640
of a path at low altitude to stay away

750
00:26:32,789 --> 00:26:30,080
from the known

751
00:26:34,789 --> 00:26:32,799
places they might be detected so

752
00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:34,799
if you just pure conjecture but if you

753
00:26:39,750 --> 00:26:37,200
have an intelligence that's aware

754
00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:39,760
and for some reason is not wanting to

755
00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:42,240
just be so over the top obvious

756
00:26:45,269 --> 00:26:43,600
at what point might they realize

757
00:26:47,669 --> 00:26:45,279
everybody's carrying a cell phone now

758
00:26:49,029 --> 00:26:47,679
everybody's got that thing ready to go

759
00:26:51,510 --> 00:26:49,039
you're going to get angles from

760
00:26:53,110 --> 00:26:51,520
everywhere so how do you avoid you

761
00:26:55,909 --> 00:26:53,120
being well it's one of the

762
00:26:57,990 --> 00:26:55,919
that's also one of neil degrasse tyson's

763
00:26:59,430 --> 00:26:58,000
things that he always says well you know

764
00:27:02,390 --> 00:26:59,440
we have

765
00:27:03,990 --> 00:27:02,400
60 billion whatever he says cell phones

766
00:27:06,549 --> 00:27:04,000
cameras out there how come we don't have

767
00:27:08,870 --> 00:27:06,559
any good pictures of ufos and why is it

768
00:27:11,029 --> 00:27:08,880
only the military that gets to film you

769
00:27:12,470 --> 00:27:11,039
know he's going on and on and on

770
00:27:14,789 --> 00:27:12,480
you mentioned that because just earlier

771
00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:14,799
this afternoon i i went out and was

772
00:27:18,310 --> 00:27:16,640
listening to this recent interview that

773
00:27:19,430 --> 00:27:18,320
hal put up did with eric weinstein i

774
00:27:21,269 --> 00:27:19,440
think you and i were talking about it

775
00:27:22,070 --> 00:27:21,279
before the show

776
00:27:24,789 --> 00:27:22,080
and

777
00:27:27,029 --> 00:27:24,799
hal himself makes a comment in there

778
00:27:28,789 --> 00:27:27,039
where he says well there were other

779
00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:28,799
videos

780
00:27:32,710 --> 00:27:29,760
and

781
00:27:35,190 --> 00:27:32,720
wait

782
00:27:36,230 --> 00:27:35,200
how good

783
00:27:37,669 --> 00:27:36,240
and how

784
00:27:39,909 --> 00:27:37,679
i'm paraphrasing but i think this is

785
00:27:43,350 --> 00:27:39,919
close he kind of says well

786
00:27:45,269 --> 00:27:43,360
about as good as you could probably want

787
00:27:47,510 --> 00:27:45,279
and i'm like wait a minute make a note

788
00:27:48,389 --> 00:27:47,520
of exactly what minute and seconds he

789
00:27:50,310 --> 00:27:48,399
said that

790
00:27:52,149 --> 00:27:50,320
because to me

791
00:27:54,549 --> 00:27:52,159
of course on the flip side it's okay

792
00:27:55,990 --> 00:27:54,559
where were they you had asap you had two

793
00:27:57,430 --> 00:27:56,000
the stars

794
00:28:00,070 --> 00:27:57,440
why not show us

795
00:28:01,990 --> 00:28:00,080
or at least tell us where those were

796
00:28:03,830 --> 00:28:02,000
but to have him make a statement like

797
00:28:05,669 --> 00:28:03,840
that pretty well goes to exactly the

798
00:28:07,350 --> 00:28:05,679
neil degrasse tyson's you know next time

799
00:28:09,750 --> 00:28:07,360
he's neil degrasse tyson says that just

800
00:28:12,149 --> 00:28:09,760
say maybe you should call hal

801
00:28:14,149 --> 00:28:12,159
and ask yeah someone just

802
00:28:16,630 --> 00:28:14,159
someone if you look at the comments

803
00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:16,640
someone john just posted this at the

804
00:28:19,830 --> 00:28:18,080
same time you were talking or just

805
00:28:21,909 --> 00:28:19,840
before you talked about it

806
00:28:22,789 --> 00:28:21,919
uh about put off

807
00:28:24,470 --> 00:28:22,799
um

808
00:28:26,389 --> 00:28:24,480
commenting about this which is pretty

809
00:28:28,870 --> 00:28:26,399
bizarre you know and unfortunately or

810
00:28:30,789 --> 00:28:28,880
fortunately i mean that's a valid point

811
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:30,799
that we're already looking at all sorts

812
00:28:34,870 --> 00:28:32,640
of cloaking techniques

813
00:28:37,430 --> 00:28:34,880
some of them aren't perfect but then

814
00:28:39,190 --> 00:28:37,440
again the general idea that if

815
00:28:41,110 --> 00:28:39,200
you know hal was talking about something

816
00:28:42,870 --> 00:28:41,120
very interesting i thought which was

817
00:28:45,510 --> 00:28:42,880
kind of the dis

818
00:28:47,510 --> 00:28:45,520
the discussion of

819
00:28:49,909 --> 00:28:47,520
different ways or

820
00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:49,919
modes of travel this is my

821
00:28:55,430 --> 00:28:52,320
trying to fumbling way to explain it

822
00:28:58,630 --> 00:28:55,440
that really aren't what you might

823
00:29:00,230 --> 00:28:58,640
consider a simple linear time like speed

824
00:29:02,389 --> 00:29:00,240
to get from point a to point b and we

825
00:29:03,830 --> 00:29:02,399
think of as how fast do you have to go

826
00:29:05,110 --> 00:29:03,840
but if there's some other way of doing

827
00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:05,120
this

828
00:29:09,110 --> 00:29:07,120
where you're not necessarily

829
00:29:10,789 --> 00:29:09,120
talking about pure speeds what you know

830
00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:10,799
ray has a picture which i'm sure you've

831
00:29:14,389 --> 00:29:13,200
seen the gort picture that to this day i

832
00:29:16,630 --> 00:29:14,399
can explain

833
00:29:18,950 --> 00:29:16,640
i've looked at it and analyzed it and

834
00:29:20,470 --> 00:29:18,960
all i can imagine is

835
00:29:22,710 --> 00:29:20,480
in my

836
00:29:25,350 --> 00:29:22,720
way of trying to explain it is something

837
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:25,360
that's able to move and

838
00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:27,600
change direction what what not fast

839
00:29:31,510 --> 00:29:29,360
enough or maybe it's not speed maybe

840
00:29:34,149 --> 00:29:31,520
it's some time fluctuation

841
00:29:35,830 --> 00:29:34,159
that yeah that ends up

842
00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:35,840
being able to come right in front of you

843
00:29:39,750 --> 00:29:37,760
and move around you don't ever see it

844
00:29:42,149 --> 00:29:39,760
you just don't it happened in this

845
00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:42,159
particular instance i think

846
00:29:47,990 --> 00:29:44,240
to change a direction at a moment that

847
00:29:49,750 --> 00:29:48,000
stopped in one frame so rapidly

848
00:29:51,190 --> 00:29:49,760
but you put anybody down let them look

849
00:29:53,190 --> 00:29:51,200
at that thing and in about two seconds

850
00:29:54,950 --> 00:29:53,200
it's going to be whoa

851
00:29:56,870 --> 00:29:54,960
so i don't know but there's the point if

852
00:29:58,310 --> 00:29:56,880
it's traveling in a way or it's cloaking

853
00:30:00,149 --> 00:29:58,320
in a way or if it's just using these

854
00:30:01,669 --> 00:30:00,159
techniques then it doesn't matter if

855
00:30:02,950 --> 00:30:01,679
you've got a camera or not you won't

856
00:30:04,950 --> 00:30:02,960
even know it's there

857
00:30:07,430 --> 00:30:04,960
you know yeah and speaking of that you

858
00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:07,440
know the the time dilation i think you

859
00:30:12,389 --> 00:30:09,600
just said something like that

860
00:30:13,830 --> 00:30:12,399
is is really quite an interesting thing

861
00:30:14,950 --> 00:30:13,840
and you know what it would answer it

862
00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:14,960
would answer

863
00:30:21,029 --> 00:30:18,000
the reason that there is no

864
00:30:23,830 --> 00:30:21,039
sonic boom when the thing takes off it

865
00:30:26,470 --> 00:30:23,840
uh seems to go several thousand miles an

866
00:30:29,669 --> 00:30:26,480
hour all of a sudden or when it blinks

867
00:30:32,310 --> 00:30:29,679
out and blinks back in another location

868
00:30:34,630 --> 00:30:32,320
instantly you know something like that

869
00:30:37,269 --> 00:30:34,640
the things that people were traveling

870
00:30:39,190 --> 00:30:37,279
at all we think of traveling as going

871
00:30:40,789 --> 00:30:39,200
from point a to point b

872
00:30:42,789 --> 00:30:40,799
but perhaps there's some other process

873
00:30:44,070 --> 00:30:42,799
we're not even aware of eric weinstein

874
00:30:46,470 --> 00:30:44,080
does a really intriguing little

875
00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:46,480
description he draws it on the board of

876
00:30:50,149 --> 00:30:48,320
some of the ideas about time and other

877
00:30:52,070 --> 00:30:50,159
dimensions and how you might be able to

878
00:30:54,870 --> 00:30:52,080
go back which may mean there really is

879
00:30:56,789 --> 00:30:54,880
no past or future it's it's all you know

880
00:30:58,389 --> 00:30:56,799
possibilities there but i'm not an

881
00:31:00,630 --> 00:30:58,399
expert enough to really describe it in

882
00:31:01,830 --> 00:31:00,640
any real adept way so i'll leave it to

883
00:31:03,509 --> 00:31:01,840
those guys

884
00:31:04,470 --> 00:31:03,519
but yeah but yeah i mean all of this

885
00:31:07,430 --> 00:31:04,480
stuff

886
00:31:10,549 --> 00:31:07,440
just once again it's we have ideas

887
00:31:12,789 --> 00:31:10,559
but that's right yeah and we can um you

888
00:31:14,070 --> 00:31:12,799
know i i really have kind of

889
00:31:15,509 --> 00:31:14,080
i don't have

890
00:31:17,669 --> 00:31:15,519
any

891
00:31:19,350 --> 00:31:17,679
maybe this sounds pessimistic but i

892
00:31:20,149 --> 00:31:19,360
really don't have any hope

893
00:31:22,310 --> 00:31:20,159
that

894
00:31:23,830 --> 00:31:22,320
we're going to know in my lifetime

895
00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:23,840
exactly what's going on i mean that's

896
00:31:28,710 --> 00:31:25,760
the thing you always hear people say gee

897
00:31:30,630 --> 00:31:28,720
i hope you know in my lifetime

898
00:31:32,789 --> 00:31:30,640
we'll find out what's going on and i saw

899
00:31:35,509 --> 00:31:32,799
something from the 1950s work i was

900
00:31:36,789 --> 00:31:35,519
talking about ufos saying that very same

901
00:31:38,310 --> 00:31:36,799
thing

902
00:31:40,149 --> 00:31:38,320
and you know i think

903
00:31:43,990 --> 00:31:40,159
you know we may never know and we may

904
00:31:45,990 --> 00:31:44,000
not even understand if we did know or no

905
00:31:47,830 --> 00:31:46,000
no more i mean you're absolutely right

906
00:31:49,430 --> 00:31:47,840
although i think of the analogy of the

907
00:31:50,789 --> 00:31:49,440
hawaiians out in the hawaiian islands

908
00:31:52,149 --> 00:31:50,799
that probably thought they were the only

909
00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:52,159
people around

910
00:31:55,990 --> 00:31:54,000
until somebody went buying a ship and

911
00:31:57,909 --> 00:31:56,000
decided to stop it long enough for them

912
00:31:59,750 --> 00:31:57,919
to roll out there and meet them

913
00:32:01,190 --> 00:31:59,760
but even then the point was it wasn't in

914
00:32:02,950 --> 00:32:01,200
their control it was in the control of

915
00:32:04,230 --> 00:32:02,960
the person with the better technology

916
00:32:05,029 --> 00:32:04,240
who happened to get out to where they

917
00:32:08,070 --> 00:32:05,039
were

918
00:32:09,909 --> 00:32:08,080
when and if he ever sails by there again

919
00:32:11,830 --> 00:32:09,919
it's pot locks so whether it happens in

920
00:32:13,509 --> 00:32:11,840
their lifetime or not

921
00:32:15,110 --> 00:32:13,519
doesn't may not change the facts of

922
00:32:16,630 --> 00:32:15,120
reality but yeah it's just a

923
00:32:17,909 --> 00:32:16,640
disappointment

924
00:32:19,830 --> 00:32:17,919
and in fact it's funny to say a

925
00:32:21,590 --> 00:32:19,840
disappointment because

926
00:32:23,669 --> 00:32:21,600
i have thought about

927
00:32:25,669 --> 00:32:23,679
what is

928
00:32:26,950 --> 00:32:25,679
the big appeal

929
00:32:30,070 --> 00:32:26,960
now i'm not saying it's appealing to

930
00:32:32,870 --> 00:32:30,080
everyone i mean i happen to also

931
00:32:35,029 --> 00:32:32,880
i'm i'm also able in my own time and

932
00:32:37,190 --> 00:32:35,039
with friends that i've talked to

933
00:32:39,990 --> 00:32:37,200
consider that

934
00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:40,000
what the consequences might be

935
00:32:45,029 --> 00:32:43,120
if this suddenly all broke that the news

936
00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:45,039
was out there that we aren't the top of

937
00:32:49,590 --> 00:32:47,120
the intelligence chain and there are

938
00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:49,600
other civilizations or any other

939
00:32:54,789 --> 00:32:53,039
civilization that's able to get here

940
00:32:56,230 --> 00:32:54,799
what's that going to do to any number of

941
00:32:57,669 --> 00:32:56,240
institutions we got religious

942
00:33:01,190 --> 00:32:57,679
institutions

943
00:33:03,509 --> 00:33:01,200
financial issues so in a way

944
00:33:04,789 --> 00:33:03,519
it's hard to imagine because

945
00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:04,799
if i was

946
00:33:09,590 --> 00:33:07,840
speculating here whoever's in charge of

947
00:33:11,190 --> 00:33:09,600
and maybe wanting to keep the lid on

948
00:33:13,750 --> 00:33:11,200
this

949
00:33:15,509 --> 00:33:13,760
you might be willing to stop and think

950
00:33:17,990 --> 00:33:15,519
it might be understandable that they

951
00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:18,000
might want to do it as long as possible

952
00:33:23,350 --> 00:33:20,720
and not necessarily come out and own up

953
00:33:24,630 --> 00:33:23,360
to it straight away

954
00:33:27,430 --> 00:33:24,640
because you're just not sure what the

955
00:33:30,310 --> 00:33:27,440
consequences might be think of not just

956
00:33:31,750 --> 00:33:30,320
even the religious groups but cults

957
00:33:33,509 --> 00:33:31,760
anyone else who may feel like they're

958
00:33:34,630 --> 00:33:33,519
going to come up on the short end or

959
00:33:37,190 --> 00:33:34,640
somebody who

960
00:33:39,269 --> 00:33:37,200
decides it is demonic or it's not

961
00:33:41,350 --> 00:33:39,279
demonic or it's the american you know

962
00:33:43,669 --> 00:33:41,360
the public nowadays there's trust a big

963
00:33:45,430 --> 00:33:43,679
trust issue do we believe it or not

964
00:33:46,870 --> 00:33:45,440
so i can kind of understand why maybe

965
00:33:49,269 --> 00:33:46,880
there might be good reasons that

966
00:33:50,710 --> 00:33:49,279
somebody could come up with to not

967
00:33:51,830 --> 00:33:50,720
let it out if they can avoid it which

968
00:33:53,350 --> 00:33:51,840
means you and i are waiting around

969
00:33:55,509 --> 00:33:53,360
forever

970
00:33:57,350 --> 00:33:55,519
but

971
00:33:59,110 --> 00:33:57,360
then again you know it's all a matter of

972
00:34:00,230 --> 00:33:59,120
if you're waiting for them to come to

973
00:34:01,990 --> 00:34:00,240
you

974
00:34:03,909 --> 00:34:02,000
and i would think maybe it's time to

975
00:34:07,110 --> 00:34:03,919
also be thinking of the

976
00:34:07,909 --> 00:34:07,120
altar approach which is

977
00:34:09,669 --> 00:34:07,919
if

978
00:34:11,430 --> 00:34:09,679
you know you brought up the papua new

979
00:34:13,109 --> 00:34:11,440
guinea case

980
00:34:14,389 --> 00:34:13,119
it was when the missionaries and the na

981
00:34:15,990 --> 00:34:14,399
and the people down on the ground that

982
00:34:17,750 --> 00:34:16,000
began to wave

983
00:34:20,550 --> 00:34:17,760
that then the guys apparently one of

984
00:34:22,710 --> 00:34:20,560
them up on the ship began to wave and i

985
00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:22,720
think even father gill mentioned that

986
00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:24,800
at some point the object began to

987
00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:26,720
actually come a little bit lower now the

988
00:34:31,270 --> 00:34:29,520
irony is he said but it was getting

989
00:34:33,669 --> 00:34:31,280
close to time for mass or whatever the

990
00:34:35,909 --> 00:34:33,679
prayers were and so they all went inside

991
00:34:38,389 --> 00:34:35,919
yeah and you're like holy cow

992
00:34:39,990 --> 00:34:38,399
but maybe if they were not

993
00:34:42,310 --> 00:34:40,000
the fact that you're waving i don't know

994
00:34:45,589 --> 00:34:42,320
maybe there's some universal thing that

995
00:34:47,510 --> 00:34:45,599
waving at somebody means hey over here

996
00:34:49,430 --> 00:34:47,520
yeah but these things did not seem to be

997
00:34:51,270 --> 00:34:49,440
afraid right so i don't know but maybe

998
00:34:53,510 --> 00:34:51,280
there's a different approach

999
00:34:56,389 --> 00:34:53,520
than just chasing them or trying to wait

1000
00:34:58,710 --> 00:34:56,399
for them to show up if ah anyway

1001
00:35:01,030 --> 00:34:58,720
it takes funding right

1002
00:35:04,390 --> 00:35:01,040
right right and you know another another

1003
00:35:06,630 --> 00:35:04,400
thing i was i was looking into

1004
00:35:08,870 --> 00:35:06,640
you know astronomy you know that's one

1005
00:35:10,390 --> 00:35:08,880
of my hobbies or whatever to just look

1006
00:35:11,349 --> 00:35:10,400
into different things and you think

1007
00:35:14,230 --> 00:35:11,359
about

1008
00:35:17,109 --> 00:35:14,240
um the known universe you know there's

1009
00:35:19,670 --> 00:35:17,119
70 percent out out there is dark matter

1010
00:35:21,750 --> 00:35:19,680
we have no idea what it is and you know

1011
00:35:23,430 --> 00:35:21,760
maybe that could explain some things

1012
00:35:27,750 --> 00:35:23,440
that

1013
00:35:29,990 --> 00:35:27,760
happening because you think about it

1014
00:35:32,390 --> 00:35:30,000
we're only 30 everything we know that

1015
00:35:35,190 --> 00:35:32,400
exists is only 30 percent of what's

1016
00:35:36,950 --> 00:35:35,200
actually out there in the behavior of

1017
00:35:37,829 --> 00:35:36,960
what's happening with these star systems

1018
00:35:42,710 --> 00:35:37,839
and

1019
00:35:44,790 --> 00:35:42,720
so we just know a very small percentage

1020
00:35:46,310 --> 00:35:44,800
30 is not very much we're not even in

1021
00:35:48,230 --> 00:35:46,320
the middle of things we're out here on

1022
00:35:49,910 --> 00:35:48,240
the yeah one arm of our galaxy out in

1023
00:35:51,589 --> 00:35:49,920
the boonies so to speak

1024
00:35:52,950 --> 00:35:51,599
and who knows what might be going on in

1025
00:35:54,790 --> 00:35:52,960
a places where things are closer

1026
00:35:58,230 --> 00:35:54,800
together and they've been able to

1027
00:36:01,349 --> 00:35:58,240
to move around or get closer and uh but

1028
00:36:02,390 --> 00:36:01,359
i you know the idea of not knowing

1029
00:36:12,790 --> 00:36:02,400
you

1030
00:36:14,550 --> 00:36:12,800
but um well i just want to say to

1031
00:36:15,829 --> 00:36:14,560
rodrigo thank you for checking that out

1032
00:36:17,589 --> 00:36:15,839
because i couldn't find anything that

1033
00:36:18,790 --> 00:36:17,599
has to do with the father gill so i'm

1034
00:36:19,990 --> 00:36:18,800
glad to know that they're still out

1035
00:36:22,950 --> 00:36:20,000
there it's a very

1036
00:36:24,870 --> 00:36:22,960
fascinating case i love that one yeah

1037
00:36:26,550 --> 00:36:24,880
and uh i love when he tells the story

1038
00:36:28,470 --> 00:36:26,560
and at the end he says

1039
00:36:30,550 --> 00:36:28,480
yeah if it's okay if you don't believe

1040
00:36:32,310 --> 00:36:30,560
me i you know

1041
00:36:34,310 --> 00:36:32,320
he yeah he acts like

1042
00:36:36,310 --> 00:36:34,320
i know what i saw but it's okay if you

1043
00:36:37,829 --> 00:36:36,320
don't believe me i understand

1044
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:37,839
and you know it's an interesting thing

1045
00:36:41,910 --> 00:36:39,680
there's a quote that i heard not long

1046
00:36:44,630 --> 00:36:41,920
ago which was

1047
00:36:46,390 --> 00:36:44,640
the truth does not mind being challenged

1048
00:36:48,470 --> 00:36:46,400
a lie does

1049
00:36:49,990 --> 00:36:48,480
yeah so if you know what you saw

1050
00:36:51,670 --> 00:36:50,000
there's no way you're ever going to be

1051
00:36:53,109 --> 00:36:51,680
able to convey the reality to a person

1052
00:36:54,790 --> 00:36:53,119
who wasn't there

1053
00:36:57,270 --> 00:36:54,800
and you can imagine if you flip if

1054
00:36:58,150 --> 00:36:57,280
things were reversed you like i do i'm

1055
00:37:01,430 --> 00:36:58,160
about

1056
00:37:03,829 --> 00:37:01,440
things i get in arguments with my

1057
00:37:05,670 --> 00:37:03,839
friends because i always and then my son

1058
00:37:07,829 --> 00:37:05,680
does it to me so i guess he came by

1059
00:37:09,589 --> 00:37:07,839
naturally but that's you don't want to

1060
00:37:12,150 --> 00:37:09,599
yes man i mean you want somebody to be

1061
00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:12,160
sure that you're

1062
00:37:15,990 --> 00:37:14,320
these alternate possibilities are being

1063
00:37:17,990 --> 00:37:16,000
injected so that you consider all of

1064
00:37:21,109 --> 00:37:18,000
them so you're at least getting there

1065
00:37:22,630 --> 00:37:21,119
but yeah yeah so just to answer this

1066
00:37:24,550 --> 00:37:22,640
you know about the father gill again was

1067
00:37:27,750 --> 00:37:24,560
he into ufos i don't know if we know

1068
00:37:30,069 --> 00:37:27,760
enough about him but i know that um as

1069
00:37:32,790 --> 00:37:30,079
uh this one says right here that he

1070
00:37:36,069 --> 00:37:32,800
he actually did meet with uh

1071
00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:36,079
dr j allen heineck paul paul heineck was

1072
00:37:40,710 --> 00:37:38,400
on a few weeks ago talking about that so

1073
00:37:43,750 --> 00:37:40,720
i know that that's true in that uh

1074
00:37:45,670 --> 00:37:43,760
that his father jay allen heineck really

1075
00:37:47,270 --> 00:37:45,680
thought that was quite the case

1076
00:37:48,630 --> 00:37:47,280
in particular that's kind of hard to

1077
00:37:49,349 --> 00:37:48,640
doubt i mean

1078
00:37:52,630 --> 00:37:49,359
in

1079
00:37:55,670 --> 00:37:52,640
part of the world

1080
00:37:57,270 --> 00:37:55,680
you know i was in indonesia at the time

1081
00:37:58,710 --> 00:37:57,280
indonesians

1082
00:38:01,349 --> 00:37:58,720
just because somebody might want to say

1083
00:38:04,630 --> 00:38:01,359
call them the natives

1084
00:38:07,109 --> 00:38:04,640
no these were smart people you had

1085
00:38:08,870 --> 00:38:07,119
i mean there's of all every culture has

1086
00:38:10,790 --> 00:38:08,880
different people at different levels but

1087
00:38:12,230 --> 00:38:10,800
i have no doubt that and especially if

1088
00:38:14,150 --> 00:38:12,240
you looked at the sketches when i get a

1089
00:38:16,069 --> 00:38:14,160
chance i'll send you that pdf i have the

1090
00:38:17,589 --> 00:38:16,079
sketches that were put together by all

1091
00:38:19,430 --> 00:38:17,599
the different people not just father

1092
00:38:20,950 --> 00:38:19,440
gill but some of the other

1093
00:38:22,390 --> 00:38:20,960
people that were there at the time and

1094
00:38:24,390 --> 00:38:22,400
you'll realize

1095
00:38:25,670 --> 00:38:24,400
like the aerial school case if you look

1096
00:38:26,790 --> 00:38:25,680
at all the sketches eventually you're

1097
00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:26,800
going to look and realize they're all

1098
00:38:30,790 --> 00:38:28,800
pretty well different levels of artistic

1099
00:38:32,790 --> 00:38:30,800
ability or whatever but they're pretty

1100
00:38:34,390 --> 00:38:32,800
well describing the same thing

1101
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:34,400
so

1102
00:38:38,390 --> 00:38:36,240
a witness is a witness and that's a

1103
00:38:39,829 --> 00:38:38,400
major multiple witness case

1104
00:38:40,630 --> 00:38:39,839
it just happened to have father gill

1105
00:38:42,710 --> 00:38:40,640
there

1106
00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:42,720
uh norman crotwell i think that's the

1107
00:38:45,589 --> 00:38:44,400
other father that was had gone up into

1108
00:38:46,870 --> 00:38:45,599
the mountains when the father bill

1109
00:38:48,230 --> 00:38:46,880
sighting occurred when he came back

1110
00:38:50,150 --> 00:38:48,240
father gill mentioned it to him and i

1111
00:38:51,829 --> 00:38:50,160
think it was father crutwell norman

1112
00:38:54,790 --> 00:38:51,839
crotwell who actually compiled this

1113
00:38:57,190 --> 00:38:54,800
report that i'm talking about

1114
00:38:59,270 --> 00:38:57,200
but there you go so you've got

1115
00:39:01,270 --> 00:38:59,280
pretty well hard to debate whether a

1116
00:39:02,550 --> 00:39:01,280
father is going to a man like that's

1117
00:39:03,829 --> 00:39:02,560
going to actually be trying to mislead

1118
00:39:05,510 --> 00:39:03,839
you on something especially when you've

1119
00:39:07,190 --> 00:39:05,520
got multiple witnesses

1120
00:39:08,950 --> 00:39:07,200
but those are the cases that fascinate

1121
00:39:10,870 --> 00:39:08,960
me most and that

1122
00:39:12,230 --> 00:39:10,880
those kinds of cases with those kinds of

1123
00:39:14,310 --> 00:39:12,240
witnesses

1124
00:39:16,230 --> 00:39:14,320
multiple you know broad daylight

1125
00:39:17,589 --> 00:39:16,240
whatever you want to call it

1126
00:39:19,430 --> 00:39:17,599
where

1127
00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:19,440
that i go back to when i decide okay

1128
00:39:22,710 --> 00:39:21,280
which of these and what's my conviction

1129
00:39:24,230 --> 00:39:22,720
based on

1130
00:39:26,390 --> 00:39:24,240
those are the kinds of cases that i

1131
00:39:30,069 --> 00:39:26,400
consider the the real core of this

1132
00:39:34,950 --> 00:39:33,030
but it's so i i want to play something

1133
00:39:37,510 --> 00:39:34,960
hopefully i'll get this to work

1134
00:39:41,030 --> 00:39:37,520
um let me see here

1135
00:39:42,630 --> 00:39:41,040
hang on just a minute uh um because

1136
00:39:44,230 --> 00:39:42,640
since we're talking about this i might

1137
00:39:46,950 --> 00:39:44,240
as well see if i can

1138
00:39:47,990 --> 00:39:46,960
play that someone in chat alerted me to

1139
00:39:51,190 --> 00:39:48,000
this

1140
00:39:53,990 --> 00:39:51,200
and let's see okay here we go

1141
00:39:56,069 --> 00:39:54,000
just hang in i'm almost there i will get

1142
00:39:58,310 --> 00:39:56,079
to it

1143
00:40:02,310 --> 00:39:58,320
i'm not a real tech whiz but i you know

1144
00:40:04,470 --> 00:40:02,320
i i i try okay here we go

1145
00:40:07,349 --> 00:40:04,480
and here is this

1146
00:40:10,150 --> 00:40:07,359
and we'll go here

1147
00:40:11,990 --> 00:40:10,160
and full full full blast here i

1148
00:40:15,910 --> 00:40:12,000
apologize so all that time i was playing

1149
00:40:19,910 --> 00:40:17,109
hey everyone

1150
00:40:21,510 --> 00:40:19,920
that welcome to live radio

1151
00:40:23,589 --> 00:40:21,520
because it's it's the sounds coming

1152
00:40:25,589 --> 00:40:23,599
right through on my end so

1153
00:40:26,710 --> 00:40:25,599
anyway sorry about that everyone looks

1154
00:40:28,069 --> 00:40:26,720
like i'm gonna have to do a little bit

1155
00:40:30,230 --> 00:40:28,079
of editing

1156
00:40:31,270 --> 00:40:30,240
but anyway uh it was interesting for me

1157
00:40:34,630 --> 00:40:31,280
to watch

1158
00:40:36,550 --> 00:40:34,640
but that was uh so he had a visual of it

1159
00:40:39,190 --> 00:40:36,560
anyway he's saying that uh he's talking

1160
00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:39,200
about it having no noise at all and that

1161
00:40:43,670 --> 00:40:42,240
it showed up and they waved to it

1162
00:40:45,670 --> 00:40:43,680
and they were

1163
00:40:47,990 --> 00:40:45,680
thinking wow wouldn't that be something

1164
00:40:49,349 --> 00:40:48,000
if they knew that we were trying to

1165
00:40:52,710 --> 00:40:49,359
communicate with them or something like

1166
00:40:54,630 --> 00:40:52,720
that and he said then they waved back

1167
00:40:56,230 --> 00:40:54,640
so

1168
00:40:58,069 --> 00:40:56,240
anyway i should have narrated it as it

1169
00:40:58,790 --> 00:40:58,079
was going along there

1170
00:41:00,150 --> 00:40:58,800
but

1171
00:41:03,349 --> 00:41:00,160
so that's it so all the people that

1172
00:41:07,829 --> 00:41:03,359
wanted to uh know about that uh that

1173
00:41:10,630 --> 00:41:07,839
case i didn't help too much but so let's

1174
00:41:11,750 --> 00:41:10,640
uh let's get into a different topic

1175
00:41:12,950 --> 00:41:11,760
and

1176
00:41:14,630 --> 00:41:12,960
uh

1177
00:41:16,309 --> 00:41:14,640
let's talk about i don't know you want

1178
00:41:18,870 --> 00:41:16,319
to talk about the paul benowitz case

1179
00:41:21,910 --> 00:41:18,880
which is to me that is such a

1180
00:41:24,309 --> 00:41:21,920
it's such a a hard

1181
00:41:27,109 --> 00:41:24,319
the whole thing is so disturbing and one

1182
00:41:29,109 --> 00:41:27,119
of the things i want to ask you is

1183
00:41:29,829 --> 00:41:29,119
i'm sure you know this but it seems to

1184
00:41:31,589 --> 00:41:29,839
me

1185
00:41:34,630 --> 00:41:31,599
that lately

1186
00:41:35,670 --> 00:41:34,640
richard doty is kind of

1187
00:41:39,190 --> 00:41:35,680
like

1188
00:41:41,589 --> 00:41:39,200
kind

1189
00:41:42,710 --> 00:41:41,599
you know he's in several movies

1190
00:41:43,990 --> 00:41:42,720
he

1191
00:41:45,270 --> 00:41:44,000
is uh

1192
00:41:47,670 --> 00:41:45,280
you know people are

1193
00:41:50,390 --> 00:41:47,680
acting like he's some type of expert on

1194
00:41:52,550 --> 00:41:50,400
aliens and he says things about you know

1195
00:41:54,630 --> 00:41:52,560
more disinformation i'm sure which is

1196
00:41:55,990 --> 00:41:54,640
really bizarre

1197
00:41:57,510 --> 00:41:56,000
and before

1198
00:41:59,750 --> 00:41:57,520
you comment on just keep that in the

1199
00:42:01,510 --> 00:41:59,760
back in mind we'll talk about it later

1200
00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:01,520
but let's talk about

1201
00:42:06,710 --> 00:42:04,960
um the whole paul benowitz case which

1202
00:42:08,230 --> 00:42:06,720
i know we have talked about it before in

1203
00:42:10,150 --> 00:42:08,240
the show but i think it's a a

1204
00:42:13,589 --> 00:42:10,160
fascinating situation

1205
00:42:14,710 --> 00:42:13,599
and it's where um things such as the

1206
00:42:18,870 --> 00:42:14,720
dulce

1207
00:42:20,150 --> 00:42:18,880
you know came in um again disinformation

1208
00:42:21,990 --> 00:42:20,160
things like this

1209
00:42:23,829 --> 00:42:22,000
all uh

1210
00:42:26,550 --> 00:42:23,839
all to steer his

1211
00:42:29,990 --> 00:42:26,560
focus away from what was going on

1212
00:42:31,270 --> 00:42:30,000
at the air base

1213
00:42:34,230 --> 00:42:31,280
well

1214
00:42:35,510 --> 00:42:34,240
it's curious because

1215
00:42:38,870 --> 00:42:35,520
you look at

1216
00:42:39,829 --> 00:42:38,880
and not to bring up the situation with

1217
00:42:41,589 --> 00:42:39,839
you know

1218
00:42:43,750 --> 00:42:41,599
what happened after the scu conference

1219
00:42:45,990 --> 00:42:43,760
where someone's trying to just push out

1220
00:42:46,950 --> 00:42:46,000
information to keep anybody from seeing

1221
00:42:48,390 --> 00:42:46,960
evidence

1222
00:42:49,670 --> 00:42:48,400
but that does

1223
00:42:52,870 --> 00:42:49,680
it is a kind of you can see a

1224
00:42:53,670 --> 00:42:52,880
correlation with what happened with paul

1225
00:42:56,710 --> 00:42:53,680
where

1226
00:42:59,910 --> 00:42:56,720
things that were done after the fact or

1227
00:43:04,470 --> 00:43:01,349
we're just

1228
00:43:06,470 --> 00:43:04,480
swamped to bury him i mean

1229
00:43:08,870 --> 00:43:06,480
an interesting case you may have heard

1230
00:43:11,109 --> 00:43:08,880
it that erica luke's had martin cannon

1231
00:43:12,790 --> 00:43:11,119
on her show recently and he brought up

1232
00:43:14,790 --> 00:43:12,800
krista tilton

1233
00:43:16,870 --> 00:43:14,800
who had written you know the benowitz

1234
00:43:18,230 --> 00:43:16,880
papers and back at that time she'd

1235
00:43:19,430 --> 00:43:18,240
gotten involved with

1236
00:43:21,270 --> 00:43:19,440
tom

1237
00:43:22,950 --> 00:43:21,280
adams and

1238
00:43:25,430 --> 00:43:22,960
the point was though

1239
00:43:27,510 --> 00:43:25,440
apparently she's no longer with us but

1240
00:43:29,190 --> 00:43:27,520
martin cannon owned up to the fact

1241
00:43:30,390 --> 00:43:29,200
that

1242
00:43:32,309 --> 00:43:30,400
she was

1243
00:43:33,990 --> 00:43:32,319
picking on the names of people like paul

1244
00:43:36,309 --> 00:43:34,000
benowitz and whatever else

1245
00:43:37,750 --> 00:43:36,319
but basically making up so much

1246
00:43:39,190 --> 00:43:37,760
information that was out there for

1247
00:43:41,430 --> 00:43:39,200
reasons of her own

1248
00:43:43,430 --> 00:43:41,440
and stoking the whole fires in a way

1249
00:43:45,270 --> 00:43:43,440
after the fact of paul benoit's

1250
00:43:47,670 --> 00:43:45,280
underground you know the alien vats at

1251
00:43:50,230 --> 00:43:47,680
dulce this type of thing

1252
00:43:54,230 --> 00:43:51,750
and

1253
00:43:55,270 --> 00:43:54,240
when i first called paul

1254
00:43:57,670 --> 00:43:55,280
it was

1255
00:44:00,069 --> 00:43:57,680
the mid-80s i guess

1256
00:44:02,150 --> 00:44:00,079
and on it frankly by that time when he

1257
00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:02,160
began to talk it wasn't very far into

1258
00:44:06,790 --> 00:44:04,000
the conversation him talking about alien

1259
00:44:10,069 --> 00:44:06,800
pragmatism and things that i'm like

1260
00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:10,079
okay whoa you know this is out there but

1261
00:44:14,150 --> 00:44:11,280
i just

1262
00:44:15,910 --> 00:44:14,160
happened to ask finally i said well okay

1263
00:44:18,950 --> 00:44:15,920
what

1264
00:44:21,030 --> 00:44:18,960
begin with

1265
00:44:23,109 --> 00:44:21,040
because i just even then i could not

1266
00:44:25,030 --> 00:44:23,119
fathom that if you call the air force

1267
00:44:26,550 --> 00:44:25,040
and say hey

1268
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:26,560
some of the things he was telling me by

1269
00:44:30,390 --> 00:44:28,800
that time this was several years after

1270
00:44:32,069 --> 00:44:30,400
he had gotten the films

1271
00:44:35,990 --> 00:44:32,079
that they're not going to say

1272
00:44:37,670 --> 00:44:36,000
call mufon or call apro or something

1273
00:44:40,230 --> 00:44:37,680
so when i asked that question the simple

1274
00:44:42,950 --> 00:44:40,240
question and he said oh it was those

1275
00:44:45,190 --> 00:44:42,960
films that i got from my roof

1276
00:44:46,069 --> 00:44:45,200
and that was the first i had really been

1277
00:44:48,390 --> 00:44:46,079
aware

1278
00:44:50,710 --> 00:44:48,400
and i'm like wait what what films oh

1279
00:44:53,109 --> 00:44:50,720
yeah yeah yeah the kind of what started

1280
00:44:54,630 --> 00:44:53,119
it all now he had gotten interest and a

1281
00:44:56,550 --> 00:44:54,640
lot of this is in the book and i know

1282
00:44:58,550 --> 00:44:56,560
i'm probably going over territory a lot

1283
00:44:59,910 --> 00:44:58,560
of people know and have heard but he had

1284
00:45:01,510 --> 00:44:59,920
been interested in the subject for a

1285
00:45:03,270 --> 00:45:01,520
while he had some

1286
00:45:05,670 --> 00:45:03,280
affiliation with apro i think it was a

1287
00:45:07,030 --> 00:45:05,680
member and um was interested because

1288
00:45:08,870 --> 00:45:07,040
back in those days there was a whole lot

1289
00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:08,880
of things going on in the northern new

1290
00:45:12,790 --> 00:45:10,640
mexico area cattle mutilation southern

1291
00:45:14,870 --> 00:45:12,800
colorado snippy the whole thing

1292
00:45:16,309 --> 00:45:14,880
which tom adams gary massey and dave

1293
00:45:17,990 --> 00:45:16,319
perkins a lot of people were really on

1294
00:45:18,790 --> 00:45:18,000
top of that my friend tom was on top of

1295
00:45:20,630 --> 00:45:18,800
that

1296
00:45:22,390 --> 00:45:20,640
and paul was

1297
00:45:23,990 --> 00:45:22,400
like many people right there was there

1298
00:45:26,069 --> 00:45:24,000
was a conference or a

1299
00:45:27,430 --> 00:45:26,079
cbi i think it was maybe

1300
00:45:28,950 --> 00:45:27,440
meeting up in

1301
00:45:30,630 --> 00:45:28,960
northern new mexico somewhere he went to

1302
00:45:32,390 --> 00:45:30,640
that but that i think is where he first

1303
00:45:33,430 --> 00:45:32,400
met gabe valdez

1304
00:45:34,470 --> 00:45:33,440
and

1305
00:45:36,870 --> 00:45:34,480
basically

1306
00:45:38,870 --> 00:45:36,880
the latter part of 1979 he was not

1307
00:45:41,589 --> 00:45:38,880
focused on albuquerque he was going back

1308
00:45:43,910 --> 00:45:41,599
and forth up to the dulce area because

1309
00:45:45,430 --> 00:45:43,920
of something he had seen in a snapshot

1310
00:45:47,430 --> 00:45:45,440
he took when he was with gabe and it got

1311
00:45:49,430 --> 00:45:47,440
his interest on that

1312
00:45:51,670 --> 00:45:49,440
that's really

1313
00:45:53,990 --> 00:45:51,680
i suppose you could say in from paul's

1314
00:45:56,309 --> 00:45:54,000
perspective where the whole dulce angle

1315
00:45:58,150 --> 00:45:56,319
kind of came in but it was also because

1316
00:45:59,670 --> 00:45:58,160
there were any number of unusual things

1317
00:46:01,510 --> 00:45:59,680
going on in that area at the time the

1318
00:46:04,150 --> 00:46:01,520
indian reservation area hickory apache

1319
00:46:06,950 --> 00:46:04,160
what not so paul like a lot of people

1320
00:46:08,230 --> 00:46:06,960
had already been interested in that

1321
00:46:09,589 --> 00:46:08,240
but it's

1322
00:46:11,190 --> 00:46:09,599
he'd been back up there two or three

1323
00:46:12,950 --> 00:46:11,200
times one time i think with his son

1324
00:46:14,470 --> 00:46:12,960
because he sent me pages of his own

1325
00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:14,480
handwritten notes explaining how all

1326
00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:15,920
this began

1327
00:46:19,270 --> 00:46:18,079
and he came back one time because he

1328
00:46:21,430 --> 00:46:19,280
said he wanted to get back before the

1329
00:46:23,109 --> 00:46:21,440
snow season started

1330
00:46:25,589 --> 00:46:23,119
and he came back and his wife mentioned

1331
00:46:27,750 --> 00:46:25,599
having her something over the roof late

1332
00:46:29,670 --> 00:46:27,760
in the wee hours of the early morning

1333
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:29,680
and i suppose

1334
00:46:32,790 --> 00:46:31,200
if he's going to be stuck in albuquerque

1335
00:46:34,390 --> 00:46:32,800
or i think now it was right near the

1336
00:46:36,630 --> 00:46:34,400
christmas holidays so since he wasn't

1337
00:46:38,630 --> 00:46:36,640
going to be driving back up to dulce

1338
00:46:39,990 --> 00:46:38,640
he just decided well

1339
00:46:41,589 --> 00:46:40,000
hey what if

1340
00:46:44,069 --> 00:46:41,599
you know i

1341
00:46:45,510 --> 00:46:44,079
i cringe to even bring this up but you

1342
00:46:47,829 --> 00:46:45,520
know we've all heard the term hitchhiker

1343
00:46:49,990 --> 00:46:47,839
effect these days i'm just saying paul

1344
00:46:51,990 --> 00:46:50,000
began to speculate

1345
00:46:54,870 --> 00:46:52,000
what if whatever he's been poking around

1346
00:46:56,790 --> 00:46:54,880
in up there in dulce area

1347
00:46:58,390 --> 00:46:56,800
has kind of traced him back to where he

1348
00:47:00,550 --> 00:46:58,400
is so he starts getting up on his

1349
00:47:02,309 --> 00:47:00,560
research staying up on his roof

1350
00:47:04,870 --> 00:47:02,319
just to see what he can see and from his

1351
00:47:07,990 --> 00:47:04,880
rooftop in the four hill section he has

1352
00:47:09,829 --> 00:47:08,000
a clean view south for three four five i

1353
00:47:11,109 --> 00:47:09,839
mean south miles but definitely towards

1354
00:47:13,829 --> 00:47:11,119
the end of the manzano mountains and of

1355
00:47:15,910 --> 00:47:13,839
course now he's two stories up and up on

1356
00:47:19,030 --> 00:47:15,920
the roof so kind of the third floor

1357
00:47:21,510 --> 00:47:19,040
altitude up there looking over the fence

1358
00:47:24,230 --> 00:47:21,520
and that's when all this started he sees

1359
00:47:25,510 --> 00:47:24,240
these objects jump up off the ground and

1360
00:47:26,870 --> 00:47:25,520
take off around the south end of the

1361
00:47:29,109 --> 00:47:26,880
mountain and

1362
00:47:30,470 --> 00:47:29,119
subsequently and i i have to be honest i

1363
00:47:32,630 --> 00:47:30,480
don't know if this was every single

1364
00:47:34,150 --> 00:47:32,640
night but he got camera equipment i

1365
00:47:36,630 --> 00:47:34,160
think at one point he had a hasselblad

1366
00:47:39,030 --> 00:47:36,640
camera he had a another camera mounted

1367
00:47:41,349 --> 00:47:39,040
on a tripod he had one mounted a video

1368
00:47:43,670 --> 00:47:41,359
camera i think mounted to a telescope

1369
00:47:46,150 --> 00:47:43,680
but he had all sorts of you know

1370
00:47:47,589 --> 00:47:46,160
fit for bear out there on his roof

1371
00:47:48,710 --> 00:47:47,599
and he described one instance where they

1372
00:47:50,150 --> 00:47:48,720
were down on the ground out there and

1373
00:47:51,910 --> 00:47:50,160
he's looking at him and his wife comes

1374
00:47:53,750 --> 00:47:51,920
out and they're both watching these

1375
00:47:55,829 --> 00:47:53,760
things and he tells her

1376
00:47:57,589 --> 00:47:55,839
when he began to notice the symptom of a

1377
00:47:59,430 --> 00:47:57,599
flash before they would take off and he

1378
00:48:01,190 --> 00:47:59,440
told her get ready here they go

1379
00:48:02,950 --> 00:48:01,200
they'd jump up about 300 feet

1380
00:48:05,030 --> 00:48:02,960
immediately turned south and zip around

1381
00:48:06,950 --> 00:48:05,040
the end of the montana mountains

1382
00:48:08,790 --> 00:48:06,960
so he had all this stuff that he had on

1383
00:48:10,630 --> 00:48:08,800
film and of course that

1384
00:48:12,309 --> 00:48:10,640
really got my interest

1385
00:48:14,470 --> 00:48:12,319
that's why yeah so let's talk about what

1386
00:48:16,870 --> 00:48:14,480
you what year was that

1387
00:48:19,349 --> 00:48:16,880
chris um the best that i can everybody

1388
00:48:21,589 --> 00:48:19,359
kind of became got to know of paul and

1389
00:48:23,829 --> 00:48:21,599
we could say in 1980 but he was looking

1390
00:48:26,309 --> 00:48:23,839
around the dulce area at the end of from

1391
00:48:28,870 --> 00:48:26,319
say july to the end of 79 and his

1392
00:48:30,390 --> 00:48:28,880
description of the knights when he

1393
00:48:33,589 --> 00:48:30,400
filmed these objects

1394
00:48:35,990 --> 00:48:33,599
was that there was no moon and it was as

1395
00:48:37,670 --> 00:48:36,000
low as 20 degrees

1396
00:48:39,430 --> 00:48:37,680
then i found some other indication

1397
00:48:40,870 --> 00:48:39,440
information that seemed to suggest to me

1398
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:40,880
that it was within a few weeks in

1399
00:48:45,910 --> 00:48:43,440
january i think it was in a a letter or

1400
00:48:47,670 --> 00:48:45,920
a note that ernest edwards had written

1401
00:48:51,270 --> 00:48:47,680
um where he said first contact with paul

1402
00:48:52,870 --> 00:48:51,280
benoit's january of 1980. so i went back

1403
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:52,880
and did some checking to look for a time

1404
00:48:56,870 --> 00:48:54,960
period when there was no moon and it was

1405
00:48:59,270 --> 00:48:56,880
down around 20 degrees

1406
00:49:00,829 --> 00:48:59,280
and i kind of narrowed into an area

1407
00:49:03,349 --> 00:49:00,839
around december

1408
00:49:05,109 --> 00:49:03,359
16th maybe in a week or so after that of

1409
00:49:08,630 --> 00:49:05,119
1979

1410
00:49:10,790 --> 00:49:08,640
range

1411
00:49:12,390 --> 00:49:10,800
and the best i can tell it may not have

1412
00:49:14,390 --> 00:49:12,400
been every night but when he went out

1413
00:49:15,510 --> 00:49:14,400
there and would see these things

1414
00:49:16,950 --> 00:49:15,520
first few nights apparently they were

1415
00:49:18,870 --> 00:49:16,960
already on the ground and he was

1416
00:49:20,309 --> 00:49:18,880
wondering he never saw them come in

1417
00:49:21,829 --> 00:49:20,319
but one of the nights he got out there

1418
00:49:23,190 --> 00:49:21,839
early and he saw i don't know if it was

1419
00:49:25,190 --> 00:49:23,200
just one of them or

1420
00:49:27,109 --> 00:49:25,200
all of them at once but he described

1421
00:49:28,230 --> 00:49:27,119
one of them coming around the end of the

1422
00:49:29,829 --> 00:49:28,240
mountain

1423
00:49:31,750 --> 00:49:29,839
coming straight up north and dropping

1424
00:49:34,390 --> 00:49:31,760
straight down

1425
00:49:36,309 --> 00:49:34,400
out lights out within five seconds not

1426
00:49:37,589 --> 00:49:36,319
like a helicopter he said coming in and

1427
00:49:38,950 --> 00:49:37,599
kind of looking for the spot to land

1428
00:49:40,790 --> 00:49:38,960
this thing just was apparently came in

1429
00:49:41,829 --> 00:49:40,800
to drop down lights out

1430
00:49:43,349 --> 00:49:41,839
and

1431
00:49:45,109 --> 00:49:43,359
at that point i guess if you were

1432
00:49:47,829 --> 00:49:45,119
downtown in the main part of albuquerque

1433
00:49:49,349 --> 00:49:47,839
at that day and whatever

1434
00:49:50,549 --> 00:49:49,359
something lower than the altitude of the

1435
00:49:52,069 --> 00:49:50,559
mountains

1436
00:49:53,190 --> 00:49:52,079
you know you people could have written

1437
00:49:55,430 --> 00:49:53,200
it off oh you must have seen a

1438
00:49:57,030 --> 00:49:55,440
helicopter if nobody was really paying

1439
00:49:59,430 --> 00:49:57,040
attention and besides who's out on the

1440
00:50:00,790 --> 00:49:59,440
rooftop in 20 degree weather

1441
00:50:03,270 --> 00:50:00,800
in albuquerque

1442
00:50:04,870 --> 00:50:03,280
very few people i can imagine so

1443
00:50:07,750 --> 00:50:04,880
i think that may have been a significant

1444
00:50:09,589 --> 00:50:07,760
point that whatever was going on

1445
00:50:11,910 --> 00:50:09,599
was going on at a time when nobody wants

1446
00:50:13,190 --> 00:50:11,920
to just walk around outside so whatever

1447
00:50:14,630 --> 00:50:13,200
these things were flying in was at a

1448
00:50:17,190 --> 00:50:14,640
time when presumably there wasn't

1449
00:50:18,790 --> 00:50:17,200
weren't going to be many people watching

1450
00:50:20,710 --> 00:50:18,800
but now do you think they actually we

1451
00:50:23,829 --> 00:50:20,720
had some type of tech that would do that

1452
00:50:27,670 --> 00:50:25,990
i mean that's that's speculation right

1453
00:50:29,030 --> 00:50:27,680
yeah i've never been able to conceive of

1454
00:50:30,390 --> 00:50:29,040
anything

1455
00:50:34,470 --> 00:50:30,400
that

1456
00:50:38,390 --> 00:50:34,480
say

1457
00:50:42,230 --> 00:50:40,309
something tells me especially when

1458
00:50:43,910 --> 00:50:42,240
they're coming into this area which at

1459
00:50:46,150 --> 00:50:43,920
the time this was inside a double

1460
00:50:47,670 --> 00:50:46,160
perimeter electrified fence i think a

1461
00:50:50,309 --> 00:50:47,680
lot of this is actually department of

1462
00:50:53,109 --> 00:50:50,319
energy land but the manzano weapon

1463
00:50:55,510 --> 00:50:53,119
storage area was a kind of a three mile

1464
00:50:57,750 --> 00:50:55,520
stretch where nuclear weapons or other

1465
00:50:58,950 --> 00:50:57,760
materials what not had been put into

1466
00:51:00,950 --> 00:50:58,960
tunnels you could actually see the

1467
00:51:02,710 --> 00:51:00,960
bunkers in probably google street view

1468
00:51:04,790 --> 00:51:02,720
you can see some of those bunkers

1469
00:51:06,230 --> 00:51:04,800
so these objects were coming down inside

1470
00:51:07,990 --> 00:51:06,240
the fence area

1471
00:51:09,829 --> 00:51:08,000
which was partly why he first called and

1472
00:51:12,150 --> 00:51:09,839
spoke with ernest edwards who was in

1473
00:51:13,670 --> 00:51:12,160
charge of the guards inside this area

1474
00:51:16,790 --> 00:51:13,680
but they were going down and landing in

1475
00:51:18,630 --> 00:51:16,800
this area for hours at a time

1476
00:51:20,150 --> 00:51:18,640
and there's some peculiarities in the

1477
00:51:21,510 --> 00:51:20,160
way they were landing that they weren't

1478
00:51:22,870 --> 00:51:21,520
all landing in a group as though

1479
00:51:24,309 --> 00:51:22,880
everybody's going to get it get out you

1480
00:51:26,470 --> 00:51:24,319
know park your cars close together that

1481
00:51:28,230 --> 00:51:26,480
kind of thing they seem to be landing in

1482
00:51:29,829 --> 00:51:28,240
a stretch and i think paul's estimate

1483
00:51:31,910 --> 00:51:29,839
was maybe

1484
00:51:33,750 --> 00:51:31,920
a couple hundred feet apart

1485
00:51:35,270 --> 00:51:33,760
and you think why would you land that

1486
00:51:36,870 --> 00:51:35,280
far apart

1487
00:51:38,790 --> 00:51:36,880
and it's speculation but someone else

1488
00:51:40,710 --> 00:51:38,800
actually even brought it up to me that

1489
00:51:42,870 --> 00:51:40,720
in that area if you look at the distance

1490
00:51:46,630 --> 00:51:42,880
between those bunkers

1491
00:51:48,790 --> 00:51:46,640
that they're spaced out a distance apart

1492
00:51:50,710 --> 00:51:48,800
and it kind of makes you wonder whether

1493
00:51:53,589 --> 00:51:50,720
there was not something

1494
00:51:55,109 --> 00:51:53,599
targeted or something intended

1495
00:51:56,390 --> 00:51:55,119
having to do maybe with some of those

1496
00:51:57,750 --> 00:51:56,400
bunkers that were down there and that

1497
00:52:00,150 --> 00:51:57,760
these things may have been lined up i

1498
00:52:02,150 --> 00:52:00,160
mean that's sheer speculation but paul

1499
00:52:03,349 --> 00:52:02,160
made the note that they appeared to be

1500
00:52:05,430 --> 00:52:03,359
in a line

1501
00:52:07,349 --> 00:52:05,440
separated by you know a couple hundred

1502
00:52:09,030 --> 00:52:07,359
feet something like that which is kind

1503
00:52:11,270 --> 00:52:09,040
of peculiar in its own way when you

1504
00:52:12,790 --> 00:52:11,280
think about it so but to be there for

1505
00:52:13,829 --> 00:52:12,800
that length of time

1506
00:52:15,589 --> 00:52:13,839
and

1507
00:52:18,230 --> 00:52:15,599
he made a note the time that his wife

1508
00:52:19,430 --> 00:52:18,240
was with him

1509
00:52:21,030 --> 00:52:19,440
there was

1510
00:52:22,390 --> 00:52:21,040
they were these things seemed to be down

1511
00:52:24,150 --> 00:52:22,400
on the ground and i believe it was the

1512
00:52:26,710 --> 00:52:24,160
same night if i'm not mistaken but he

1513
00:52:29,030 --> 00:52:26,720
made a note at one point he said it sure

1514
00:52:31,430 --> 00:52:29,040
looked like somebody got out and was

1515
00:52:32,950 --> 00:52:31,440
walking around with a flashlight because

1516
00:52:34,630 --> 00:52:32,960
he could just see this light that seemed

1517
00:52:37,349 --> 00:52:34,640
to be being played around on the ground

1518
00:52:38,470 --> 00:52:37,359
below where one of these things was

1519
00:52:39,430 --> 00:52:38,480
um

1520
00:52:40,870 --> 00:52:39,440
obviously would have to have been

1521
00:52:42,549 --> 00:52:40,880
something either what he was seeing it

1522
00:52:44,230 --> 00:52:42,559
through binoculars or his telescope or

1523
00:52:45,430 --> 00:52:44,240
something to see it at you know i think

1524
00:52:46,630 --> 00:52:45,440
i estimated about two two and a half

1525
00:52:47,990 --> 00:52:46,640
miles away

1526
00:52:49,430 --> 00:52:48,000
but also

1527
00:52:50,470 --> 00:52:49,440
there were some lights that seemed to

1528
00:52:52,390 --> 00:52:50,480
come by

1529
00:52:53,510 --> 00:52:52,400
that he and his wife i think speculated

1530
00:52:55,430 --> 00:52:53,520
this looked like the lights of the

1531
00:52:57,190 --> 00:52:55,440
guards that would occasionally there was

1532
00:52:59,349 --> 00:52:57,200
a road inside this double perimeter

1533
00:53:01,829 --> 00:52:59,359
fence so presumably the guards would do

1534
00:53:04,470 --> 00:53:01,839
their duty or their trips around this

1535
00:53:05,430 --> 00:53:04,480
whole site during the night

1536
00:53:06,710 --> 00:53:05,440
and

1537
00:53:08,069 --> 00:53:06,720
they were like at one point it looked

1538
00:53:10,150 --> 00:53:08,079
like these lights either must have gone

1539
00:53:11,510 --> 00:53:10,160
right by or kind of right below wherever

1540
00:53:15,510 --> 00:53:11,520
these lights would have been how could

1541
00:53:19,829 --> 00:53:18,390
i don't know unless unless

1542
00:53:21,670 --> 00:53:19,839
they knew they were there

1543
00:53:23,109 --> 00:53:21,680
you know unless i don't know unless for

1544
00:53:24,470 --> 00:53:23,119
some reason

1545
00:53:25,510 --> 00:53:24,480
these things can sit down there on the

1546
00:53:26,710 --> 00:53:25,520
ground

1547
00:53:28,630 --> 00:53:26,720
this is the part of the whole thing

1548
00:53:30,470 --> 00:53:28,640
though that got me

1549
00:53:33,190 --> 00:53:30,480
i don't think there's any way anybody

1550
00:53:34,470 --> 00:53:33,200
inside that area who was in any way

1551
00:53:35,990 --> 00:53:34,480
shape or form

1552
00:53:37,430 --> 00:53:36,000
looking there

1553
00:53:38,870 --> 00:53:37,440
could have missed these things coming

1554
00:53:41,589 --> 00:53:38,880
and going

1555
00:53:43,270 --> 00:53:41,599
because paul got him on film

1556
00:53:45,270 --> 00:53:43,280
which means from where he was and he

1557
00:53:47,510 --> 00:53:45,280
wasn't supposed to be there let's just

1558
00:53:49,270 --> 00:53:47,520
take that as maybe a presumption that

1559
00:53:50,790 --> 00:53:49,280
nobody knew he was there so you can't

1560
00:53:51,750 --> 00:53:50,800
say they had their lights on targeting

1561
00:53:53,510 --> 00:53:51,760
on him

1562
00:53:55,349 --> 00:53:53,520
but he got it on film he saw them coming

1563
00:53:57,030 --> 00:53:55,359
in he saw them taken off and going which

1564
00:53:58,309 --> 00:53:57,040
i have to imagine if you're any closer

1565
00:54:00,790 --> 00:53:58,319
than he was

1566
00:54:03,510 --> 00:54:00,800
that's a substantial amount of visible

1567
00:54:04,470 --> 00:54:03,520
light from these objects so if anybody

1568
00:54:06,150 --> 00:54:04,480
was out there on the side of the

1569
00:54:08,069 --> 00:54:06,160
mountain how could you miss it i don't

1570
00:54:09,990 --> 00:54:08,079
know these are questions i have i mean

1571
00:54:11,510 --> 00:54:10,000
i'm somebody that if you know me i have

1572
00:54:13,109 --> 00:54:11,520
questions i don't always

1573
00:54:14,390 --> 00:54:13,119
presume an answer to anything it's just

1574
00:54:15,670 --> 00:54:14,400
these are questions i think are worth

1575
00:54:17,589 --> 00:54:15,680
asking

1576
00:54:21,270 --> 00:54:17,599
but you might also

1577
00:54:23,750 --> 00:54:21,280
consider the response to paul

1578
00:54:26,069 --> 00:54:23,760
when he reported it

1579
00:54:27,990 --> 00:54:26,079
there didn't seem

1580
00:54:30,870 --> 00:54:28,000
from everything i've seen

1581
00:54:32,790 --> 00:54:30,880
there didn't seem to be any real effort

1582
00:54:34,470 --> 00:54:32,800
to figure out what went on i mean one

1583
00:54:36,230 --> 00:54:34,480
paul i think even said the reason he

1584
00:54:38,390 --> 00:54:36,240
called the air force was

1585
00:54:40,069 --> 00:54:38,400
because he wondered if they even knew

1586
00:54:42,069 --> 00:54:40,079
because there was no reaction he saw no

1587
00:54:43,670 --> 00:54:42,079
response out there so he thought he was

1588
00:54:45,670 --> 00:54:43,680
doing his duty

1589
00:54:47,270 --> 00:54:45,680
to call and say

1590
00:54:49,109 --> 00:54:47,280
these things he saw these things and

1591
00:54:51,030 --> 00:54:49,119
film these things

1592
00:54:52,870 --> 00:54:51,040
but the reaction seemed to be to try to

1593
00:54:55,750 --> 00:54:52,880
shut him up

1594
00:54:57,510 --> 00:54:55,760
not to determine what what was and what

1595
00:54:59,270 --> 00:54:57,520
was going on and

1596
00:55:00,870 --> 00:54:59,280
apparently there was no effort to even

1597
00:55:02,710 --> 00:55:00,880
tell him hey this is a classified

1598
00:55:04,309 --> 00:55:02,720
project we have going on here you

1599
00:55:06,390 --> 00:55:04,319
weren't supposed to see this we'd

1600
00:55:07,589 --> 00:55:06,400
appreciate it you know just a cover

1601
00:55:10,630 --> 00:55:07,599
story of

1602
00:55:12,710 --> 00:55:10,640
whatever everything seemed to be

1603
00:55:14,069 --> 00:55:12,720
they knew he was had at some point knew

1604
00:55:15,990 --> 00:55:14,079
he was already looking around in the

1605
00:55:18,150 --> 00:55:16,000
dulce area they knew he was interested

1606
00:55:20,630 --> 00:55:18,160
in ufos and had gotten these things on

1607
00:55:22,390 --> 00:55:20,640
film so like i think it was even bill

1608
00:55:24,069 --> 00:55:22,400
moore had kind of implied they just were

1609
00:55:26,150 --> 00:55:24,079
going to stuff him with as much

1610
00:55:27,990 --> 00:55:26,160
disinformation as they could

1611
00:55:29,270 --> 00:55:28,000
to be sure that if he says anything at

1612
00:55:30,870 --> 00:55:29,280
all

1613
00:55:32,470 --> 00:55:30,880
nobody's going to want to

1614
00:55:34,470 --> 00:55:32,480
believe it so they fill him with all the

1615
00:55:35,910 --> 00:55:34,480
woo-woo side of the stuff

1616
00:55:38,710 --> 00:55:35,920
and get other people to come into the

1617
00:55:40,549 --> 00:55:38,720
picture to just foment it i mean

1618
00:55:42,069 --> 00:55:40,559
well let me ask you one of the one of

1619
00:55:44,069 --> 00:55:42,079
the mysteries here

1620
00:55:46,390 --> 00:55:44,079
was he do you think he was actually

1621
00:55:47,589 --> 00:55:46,400
given a computer

1622
00:55:49,750 --> 00:55:47,599
and told

1623
00:55:52,870 --> 00:55:49,760
that you know to to look at it there was

1624
00:55:54,390 --> 00:55:52,880
information on it or whatever it was

1625
00:55:55,829 --> 00:55:54,400
you know the story i'm talking about

1626
00:55:56,950 --> 00:55:55,839
right yeah the story the first that i

1627
00:55:58,549 --> 00:55:56,960
ever heard the story was in greg

1628
00:56:00,150 --> 00:55:58,559
bishop's book

1629
00:56:01,270 --> 00:56:00,160
and i think i may have even asked greg

1630
00:56:02,549 --> 00:56:01,280
about it a time or two when we were

1631
00:56:05,030 --> 00:56:02,559
talking but

1632
00:56:07,270 --> 00:56:05,040
the story seems to have been that greg

1633
00:56:09,910 --> 00:56:07,280
if i go if i'm correct here greg was

1634
00:56:13,190 --> 00:56:09,920
told that by bill moore

1635
00:56:16,870 --> 00:56:13,200
bill moore claimed that

1636
00:56:19,430 --> 00:56:16,880
alan heineck had been given a computer

1637
00:56:21,109 --> 00:56:19,440
apparently pre-loaded with software

1638
00:56:23,910 --> 00:56:21,119
but that the air force had given to

1639
00:56:25,910 --> 00:56:23,920
heinek to give to

1640
00:56:28,150 --> 00:56:25,920
to uh paul

1641
00:56:30,390 --> 00:56:28,160
but don't tell him the air force

1642
00:56:34,150 --> 00:56:30,400
were the ones who were providing it

1643
00:56:40,870 --> 00:56:36,870
i you know i mean i have i have

1644
00:56:45,190 --> 00:56:43,109
i had a lot of respect for alan heineck

1645
00:56:47,829 --> 00:56:45,200
i mean i don't think anybody

1646
00:56:50,230 --> 00:56:47,839
everybody does

1647
00:56:53,349 --> 00:56:50,240
there's no way and i've realized this

1648
00:56:55,589 --> 00:56:53,359
it's a story told by bill moore

1649
00:56:58,549 --> 00:56:55,599
that unless somebody comes out with some

1650
00:57:00,870 --> 00:56:58,559
documentation that attests to it you can

1651
00:57:03,349 --> 00:57:00,880
never say i can't i certainly am not

1652
00:57:05,750 --> 00:57:03,359
going to just decide that alan heineck

1653
00:57:07,670 --> 00:57:05,760
was somehow acting as a mole

1654
00:57:08,549 --> 00:57:07,680
you know perpetuating the disinformation

1655
00:57:11,109 --> 00:57:08,559
by

1656
00:57:13,430 --> 00:57:11,119
knowing and willingly contributing this

1657
00:57:14,789 --> 00:57:13,440
computer to paul hoping to just push him

1658
00:57:17,349 --> 00:57:14,799
over the edge

1659
00:57:19,270 --> 00:57:17,359
that's hard it's hard to me to believe

1660
00:57:20,789 --> 00:57:19,280
the same way that i feel nowadays with

1661
00:57:22,390 --> 00:57:20,799
everybody that's

1662
00:57:24,470 --> 00:57:22,400
involved with the whole

1663
00:57:26,549 --> 00:57:24,480
asap to a-tip thing

1664
00:57:28,549 --> 00:57:26,559
you know yeah we want to talk about that

1665
00:57:30,390 --> 00:57:28,559
too i forgot about i'm just saying at

1666
00:57:32,230 --> 00:57:30,400
some point i have not had a chance to

1667
00:57:33,349 --> 00:57:32,240
talk to them so i'm certainly not going

1668
00:57:34,710 --> 00:57:33,359
to

1669
00:57:35,910 --> 00:57:34,720
judge anybody

1670
00:57:38,309 --> 00:57:35,920
just because there are things that i

1671
00:57:39,829 --> 00:57:38,319
don't know i don't know what

1672
00:57:42,230 --> 00:57:39,839
they may have had on their plate or what

1673
00:57:43,430 --> 00:57:42,240
the rationale like heineken in this case

1674
00:57:44,710 --> 00:57:43,440
was he

1675
00:57:46,069 --> 00:57:44,720
told

1676
00:57:48,069 --> 00:57:46,079
that the air force had put this

1677
00:57:49,910 --> 00:57:48,079
information maybe he wasn't even aware

1678
00:57:52,150 --> 00:57:49,920
maybe they just said we don't want to be

1679
00:57:53,670 --> 00:57:52,160
known to have handed this to paul but

1680
00:57:55,030 --> 00:57:53,680
we're trying to help him so give this to

1681
00:57:56,150 --> 00:57:55,040
him and maybe heineken was totally

1682
00:57:58,150 --> 00:57:56,160
clueless

1683
00:58:00,069 --> 00:57:58,160
and he thought he was doing a good thing

1684
00:58:01,829 --> 00:58:00,079
i don't know but i've never seen any

1685
00:58:03,750 --> 00:58:01,839
other substantiation for it is all i'm

1686
00:58:05,510 --> 00:58:03,760
saying

1687
00:58:06,710 --> 00:58:05,520
uh these things keep moving while i'm

1688
00:58:09,910 --> 00:58:06,720
trying to

1689
00:58:11,349 --> 00:58:09,920
um let's see there was a point up here

1690
00:58:12,390 --> 00:58:11,359
and

1691
00:58:14,549 --> 00:58:12,400
about

1692
00:58:17,109 --> 00:58:14,559
the computer here it is so in what year

1693
00:58:20,309 --> 00:58:17,119
was the computer not possible um this

1694
00:58:22,470 --> 00:58:20,319
was this was a very early computer

1695
00:58:23,829 --> 00:58:22,480
right i mean it would have to have been

1696
00:58:25,349 --> 00:58:23,839
well there was my friend i mean what

1697
00:58:26,470 --> 00:58:25,359
year did he die

1698
00:58:29,829 --> 00:58:26,480
what year did

1699
00:58:30,710 --> 00:58:29,839
was it 82 or something like that

1700
00:58:32,549 --> 00:58:30,720
yeah

1701
00:58:33,990 --> 00:58:32,559
but my understanding from some people

1702
00:58:35,430 --> 00:58:34,000
who had at least seen some of the

1703
00:58:37,030 --> 00:58:35,440
printouts i think and some of the

1704
00:58:38,710 --> 00:58:37,040
pictures that paul had i think shared

1705
00:58:41,190 --> 00:58:38,720
with gabe valdez

1706
00:58:41,990 --> 00:58:41,200
it seems like and there was a discussion

1707
00:58:43,750 --> 00:58:42,000
of

1708
00:58:45,270 --> 00:58:43,760
some old computer game it may have been

1709
00:58:47,270 --> 00:58:45,280
called like wagon train or something

1710
00:58:49,670 --> 00:58:47,280
very rudimentary pixelated kind of early

1711
00:58:51,829 --> 00:58:49,680
early graphics from back in the day so

1712
00:58:53,750 --> 00:58:51,839
i'm guessing yeah it probably would have

1713
00:58:54,950 --> 00:58:53,760
been in the 1980

1714
00:58:57,910 --> 00:58:54,960
time frame

1715
00:59:00,309 --> 00:58:57,920
uh if not ad81 so

1716
00:59:02,150 --> 00:59:00,319
certainly a rudimentary i don't know

1717
00:59:03,430 --> 00:59:02,160
i don't even think they had windows at

1718
00:59:06,549 --> 00:59:03,440
the time so it may have very well been

1719
00:59:07,750 --> 00:59:06,559
dos mode uh maybe dos 3.1 or something

1720
00:59:09,510 --> 00:59:07,760
like this

1721
00:59:10,710 --> 00:59:09,520
yeah but i don't know i mean i never

1722
00:59:12,309 --> 00:59:10,720
actually

1723
00:59:13,750 --> 00:59:12,319
saw the computer i just have heard

1724
00:59:15,190 --> 00:59:13,760
people who have seen some of the

1725
00:59:16,309 --> 00:59:15,200
printouts and some of the images and

1726
00:59:18,309 --> 00:59:16,319
whatnot

1727
00:59:20,470 --> 00:59:18,319
and talked about so is it is it true

1728
00:59:23,270 --> 00:59:20,480
that the paul benowitz

1729
00:59:25,109 --> 00:59:23,280
lived until 2003 is that right

1730
00:59:27,829 --> 00:59:25,119
uh he may have i honestly right off the

1731
00:59:29,349 --> 00:59:27,839
top of my head i don't recall exactly i

1732
00:59:32,390 --> 00:59:29,359
know when we were in santa fe we went

1733
00:59:34,950 --> 00:59:32,400
and saw where he's buried um

1734
00:59:37,829 --> 00:59:34,960
yeah but i don't know did you you met

1735
00:59:39,670 --> 00:59:37,839
him did did you meet him at one time one

1736
00:59:41,510 --> 00:59:39,680
time i had several phone conversations

1737
00:59:43,430 --> 00:59:41,520
with him i mean and

1738
00:59:44,789 --> 00:59:43,440
if it's matters to anybody i recorded

1739
00:59:47,349 --> 00:59:44,799
quite a few of those

1740
00:59:49,430 --> 00:59:47,359
and he also exchanged plenty of email i

1741
00:59:51,430 --> 00:59:49,440
mean not emails um letters handwritten

1742
00:59:53,510 --> 00:59:51,440
letters back and forth and as i said he

1743
00:59:55,270 --> 00:59:53,520
sent me a whole lot of information and

1744
00:59:56,150 --> 00:59:55,280
the one time i was going to give a talk

1745
00:59:58,870 --> 00:59:56,160
in

1746
01:00:00,390 --> 00:59:58,880
dallas he sent me this is where i got my

1747
01:00:02,549 --> 01:00:00,400
copies or that i've

1748
01:00:04,630 --> 01:00:02,559
been tried to best to enhance of the

1749
01:00:06,630 --> 01:00:04,640
images that he had because he sent me a

1750
01:00:08,230 --> 01:00:06,640
box i told him i would really like to

1751
01:00:10,630 --> 01:00:08,240
talk about his experiences at this

1752
01:00:13,670 --> 01:00:10,640
conference and he sent me a fedex box

1753
01:00:15,510 --> 01:00:13,680
with mounted on blackboard 8 by ten blow

1754
01:00:17,349 --> 01:00:15,520
ups and even the original little

1755
01:00:19,270 --> 01:00:17,359
polaroid image that he had taken after

1756
01:00:21,829 --> 01:00:19,280
his ride with gabe valdez was glued to

1757
01:00:24,150 --> 01:00:21,839
that i was like holy cow he sent me this

1758
01:00:26,069 --> 01:00:24,160
original polaroid on this box

1759
01:00:28,069 --> 01:00:26,079
and i i don't know for sure i've

1760
01:00:30,230 --> 01:00:28,079
wondered whether if that might not have

1761
01:00:31,589 --> 01:00:30,240
been a set that he because i didn't get

1762
01:00:32,950 --> 01:00:31,599
the impression he put them together just

1763
01:00:34,150 --> 01:00:32,960
to send to me

1764
01:00:35,829 --> 01:00:34,160
so it may have been something he had

1765
01:00:37,430 --> 01:00:35,839
already put together and i wondered

1766
01:00:39,910 --> 01:00:37,440
whether he might have put those together

1767
01:00:41,109 --> 01:00:39,920
for that 1980 meeting in kirtland when

1768
01:00:42,549 --> 01:00:41,119
he went down there and met general

1769
01:00:44,710 --> 01:00:42,559
berkshire and some of the other ones

1770
01:00:46,710 --> 01:00:44,720
maybe that he had those already

1771
01:00:48,710 --> 01:00:46,720
to use in the presentation and he just

1772
01:00:50,789 --> 01:00:48,720
had the box and he sent it to me

1773
01:00:52,950 --> 01:00:50,799
and finally you know i had to return

1774
01:00:54,390 --> 01:00:52,960
them but i took slides of every single

1775
01:00:56,549 --> 01:00:54,400
one of those images

1776
01:00:58,789 --> 01:00:56,559
as best i could but some of the images

1777
01:01:00,950 --> 01:00:58,799
actually showed in the old style eight

1778
01:01:02,630 --> 01:01:00,960
millimeter you know reel to reel

1779
01:01:05,510 --> 01:01:02,640
monitors that used to use back in the

1780
01:01:06,950 --> 01:01:05,520
old days that he had taken a picture of

1781
01:01:08,309 --> 01:01:06,960
the little monitor with the slides on it

1782
01:01:11,510 --> 01:01:08,319
and you can see the images on there so

1783
01:01:12,549 --> 01:01:11,520
it was proof for certain he had film

1784
01:01:14,309 --> 01:01:12,559
footage

1785
01:01:16,069 --> 01:01:14,319
of these things and

1786
01:01:18,069 --> 01:01:16,079
probably the main major pictures that i

1787
01:01:19,430 --> 01:01:18,079
did my best to enhance in the book

1788
01:01:22,390 --> 01:01:19,440
were taken

1789
01:01:25,109 --> 01:01:22,400
from that film now where those

1790
01:01:27,270 --> 01:01:25,119
hasselblad pictures went where he had

1791
01:01:28,789 --> 01:01:27,280
that thing with a six degree lens on it

1792
01:01:31,190 --> 01:01:28,799
or the pictures with the telescope you

1793
01:01:33,109 --> 01:01:31,200
know that sort of thing

1794
01:01:35,190 --> 01:01:33,119
there would have to have been some other

1795
01:01:37,829 --> 01:01:35,200
major documentation the photographic

1796
01:01:39,750 --> 01:01:37,839
information records of this stuff but

1797
01:01:41,349 --> 01:01:39,760
all i do you think it's still like do

1798
01:01:42,950 --> 01:01:41,359
you think it still exists in a file

1799
01:01:44,630 --> 01:01:42,960
somewhere

1800
01:01:47,670 --> 01:01:44,640
you know i pray

1801
01:01:49,589 --> 01:01:47,680
that kind of thing i mean i had uh

1802
01:01:52,549 --> 01:01:49,599
at one point

1803
01:01:54,549 --> 01:01:52,559
i actually had written

1804
01:01:55,910 --> 01:01:54,559
this was well into when i had started to

1805
01:01:57,430 --> 01:01:55,920
kind of work on the book i don't recall

1806
01:01:59,029 --> 01:01:57,440
exactly when he died because i know i

1807
01:02:01,910 --> 01:01:59,039
think at one point

1808
01:02:04,549 --> 01:02:01,920
i wrote to his wife actually i wrote to

1809
01:02:06,630 --> 01:02:04,559
his son this was some time after he had

1810
01:02:08,870 --> 01:02:06,640
cut himself off from everyone

1811
01:02:11,349 --> 01:02:08,880
and was just asking and he said you know

1812
01:02:12,470 --> 01:02:11,359
in all honesty if his father wants to

1813
01:02:15,510 --> 01:02:12,480
talk to me

1814
01:02:17,430 --> 01:02:15,520
he could i will admit i

1815
01:02:19,349 --> 01:02:17,440
stunned

1816
01:02:20,630 --> 01:02:19,359
to not understand why paul i really

1817
01:02:22,789 --> 01:02:20,640
believed he would at least call me

1818
01:02:24,309 --> 01:02:22,799
before he just hung up on everybody that

1819
01:02:25,670 --> 01:02:24,319
he would i honestly did i waited and

1820
01:02:27,190 --> 01:02:25,680
just thought he'll call me and say this

1821
01:02:28,789 --> 01:02:27,200
is what's going on never heard from him

1822
01:02:31,109 --> 01:02:28,799
again the phone was disconnected but i

1823
01:02:32,630 --> 01:02:31,119
did write to his wife

1824
01:02:35,589 --> 01:02:32,640
who knows whether he saw it or anybody

1825
01:02:36,710 --> 01:02:35,599
saw it and basically expressed that idea

1826
01:02:38,470 --> 01:02:36,720
i said

1827
01:02:40,789 --> 01:02:38,480
just my

1828
01:02:41,990 --> 01:02:40,799
thinking now from what i know and what i

1829
01:02:43,829 --> 01:02:42,000
found

1830
01:02:45,510 --> 01:02:43,839
if you have any of those films or

1831
01:02:47,750 --> 01:02:45,520
pictures that paul took the original

1832
01:02:49,430 --> 01:02:47,760
ones that he took from his rooftop

1833
01:02:51,349 --> 01:02:49,440
please please

1834
01:02:53,270 --> 01:02:51,359
put them in a safe deposit box do

1835
01:02:54,950 --> 01:02:53,280
something with them just save them

1836
01:02:56,390 --> 01:02:54,960
whatever you want whatever it was i said

1837
01:02:58,150 --> 01:02:56,400
i'm not asking for them to send them to

1838
01:03:00,230 --> 01:02:58,160
me but it would be

1839
01:03:03,349 --> 01:03:00,240
i said i just think they're too valuable

1840
01:03:05,670 --> 01:03:03,359
if anything else lock those things away

1841
01:03:07,670 --> 01:03:05,680
but i never heard from her

1842
01:03:09,589 --> 01:03:07,680
i stopped in santa fe when i was driving

1843
01:03:11,990 --> 01:03:09,599
up there a couple of years back and just

1844
01:03:13,349 --> 01:03:12,000
happened to cold call stopped in thunder

1845
01:03:14,710 --> 01:03:13,359
scientific and

1846
01:03:16,710 --> 01:03:14,720
asked to speak to the son that was there

1847
01:03:18,710 --> 01:03:16,720
i think it was ben he was very very

1848
01:03:20,789 --> 01:03:18,720
polite very nice guy nice looking

1849
01:03:22,710 --> 01:03:20,799
company and i just kind of passed my

1850
01:03:24,390 --> 01:03:22,720
you know respect for his dad and he was

1851
01:03:25,670 --> 01:03:24,400
very nice about it he didn't yell at me

1852
01:03:27,430 --> 01:03:25,680
and run me out the door nothing like

1853
01:03:30,630 --> 01:03:27,440
that you know so

1854
01:03:33,109 --> 01:03:30,640
i just hope if any of them have those

1855
01:03:35,109 --> 01:03:33,119
original films or pictures that paul got

1856
01:03:37,109 --> 01:03:35,119
if they're still there who's to say

1857
01:03:38,870 --> 01:03:37,119
whether they got taken out of his house

1858
01:03:40,630 --> 01:03:38,880
i don't know

1859
01:03:41,589 --> 01:03:40,640
so when you when you stop by and spoke

1860
01:03:43,109 --> 01:03:41,599
to ben

1861
01:03:45,190 --> 01:03:43,119
did you happen to tell them about your

1862
01:03:46,630 --> 01:03:45,200
book um

1863
01:03:48,870 --> 01:03:46,640
you know i'll stop my head right now i

1864
01:03:51,029 --> 01:03:48,880
don't recall i think i just stopped in

1865
01:03:52,630 --> 01:03:51,039
and i said you know believe me i admit i

1866
01:03:55,109 --> 01:03:52,640
was really

1867
01:03:56,549 --> 01:03:55,119
on my nerves

1868
01:03:58,230 --> 01:03:56,559
not wanting to make a big thing and

1869
01:03:59,589 --> 01:03:58,240
speaking you know he didn't ask me back

1870
01:04:01,510 --> 01:03:59,599
to his office or anything i just had

1871
01:04:02,630 --> 01:04:01,520
asked the secretaries up front

1872
01:04:04,870 --> 01:04:02,640
and uh

1873
01:04:06,150 --> 01:04:04,880
they came back i mean he he came out and

1874
01:04:08,309 --> 01:04:06,160
talked to me for a moment and so i tried

1875
01:04:10,390 --> 01:04:08,319
as quiet as i could to just you know pay

1876
01:04:12,069 --> 01:04:10,400
my respects for his dad and you know

1877
01:04:13,510 --> 01:04:12,079
tell him i don't know that i even

1878
01:04:15,349 --> 01:04:13,520
mentioned that i'd written a book at the

1879
01:04:17,109 --> 01:04:15,359
time i just wanted to

1880
01:04:18,789 --> 01:04:17,119
let him know he was very nice and seemed

1881
01:04:20,630 --> 01:04:18,799
very gracious and

1882
01:04:22,069 --> 01:04:20,640
i hope he thought well well of me if

1883
01:04:23,190 --> 01:04:22,079
nothing else right

1884
01:04:24,390 --> 01:04:23,200
but um

1885
01:04:26,069 --> 01:04:24,400
but i don't know whatever happened to

1886
01:04:28,150 --> 01:04:26,079
paul's

1887
01:04:30,309 --> 01:04:28,160
pictures so

1888
01:04:31,270 --> 01:04:30,319
yeah what can you say

1889
01:04:33,349 --> 01:04:31,280
right

1890
01:04:35,670 --> 01:04:33,359
and it's intriguing to me though that to

1891
01:04:37,750 --> 01:04:35,680
this day

1892
01:04:38,870 --> 01:04:37,760
maybe beyond me and i'm maybe people are

1893
01:04:40,710 --> 01:04:38,880
getting tired of hearing about it but

1894
01:04:42,950 --> 01:04:40,720
i'm going to do my best to keep paul's

1895
01:04:46,549 --> 01:04:42,960
name out there the only other person who

1896
01:04:48,069 --> 01:04:46,559
actually is still out here talking paul

1897
01:04:49,589 --> 01:04:48,079
is richard dodie

1898
01:04:50,950 --> 01:04:49,599
and it seems like every opportunity he

1899
01:04:53,349 --> 01:04:50,960
gets

1900
01:04:55,029 --> 01:04:53,359
find another way to just slam the

1901
01:04:55,910 --> 01:04:55,039
lid down a little bit more on it kind of

1902
01:04:58,069 --> 01:04:55,920
like

1903
01:04:59,750 --> 01:04:58,079
this scu situation you know just do

1904
01:05:03,270 --> 01:04:59,760
anything to keep the

1905
01:05:05,270 --> 01:05:03,280
the jack-in-the-box down and i'm like

1906
01:05:07,029 --> 01:05:05,280
it just stuns me you're like you said

1907
01:05:08,470 --> 01:05:07,039
that he seems to be getting celebrity

1908
01:05:11,270 --> 01:05:08,480
status

1909
01:05:12,470 --> 01:05:11,280
yeah and why why do why do you think

1910
01:05:14,870 --> 01:05:12,480
i mean

1911
01:05:15,990 --> 01:05:14,880
to me it would almost seem like he would

1912
01:05:18,230 --> 01:05:16,000
want to

1913
01:05:20,069 --> 01:05:18,240
skip away from that topic now as you

1914
01:05:22,630 --> 01:05:20,079
know you and i had a conversation he was

1915
01:05:26,549 --> 01:05:22,640
going to be on this show

1916
01:05:28,069 --> 01:05:26,559
and at one point and i told him that i

1917
01:05:29,829 --> 01:05:28,079
will have you on the sh i would love to

1918
01:05:31,829 --> 01:05:29,839
have you on the show but you're going to

1919
01:05:33,510 --> 01:05:31,839
have to answer every question i i don't

1920
01:05:35,589 --> 01:05:33,520
want anything off the table and what i'm

1921
01:05:37,750 --> 01:05:35,599
going to talk about and he agreed to it

1922
01:05:39,990 --> 01:05:37,760
at the time but then when it came time

1923
01:05:43,349 --> 01:05:40,000
to do the show i didn't he didn't

1924
01:05:45,349 --> 01:05:43,359
respond and he didn't you know to a date

1925
01:05:47,349 --> 01:05:45,359
so uh but

1926
01:05:49,589 --> 01:05:47,359
you know i would still have him on the

1927
01:05:52,150 --> 01:05:49,599
show but i would have to ask him

1928
01:05:53,910 --> 01:05:52,160
in detail and i'd have to have

1929
01:05:54,950 --> 01:05:53,920
you know i'd have to be prepared for the

1930
01:05:57,750 --> 01:05:54,960
show

1931
01:06:00,950 --> 01:05:57,760
maybe with your help or something to

1932
01:06:03,589 --> 01:06:00,960
ask why he's perpetuating this

1933
01:06:06,470 --> 01:06:03,599
situation you know for one but um you

1934
01:06:09,670 --> 01:06:08,069
i would like to be able to ask him some

1935
01:06:13,430 --> 01:06:09,680
hard questions that i don't think anyone

1936
01:06:17,349 --> 01:06:15,589
you know i mean

1937
01:06:20,950 --> 01:06:17,359
we're all good americans here if i could

1938
01:06:22,870 --> 01:06:20,960
start by saying that and the idea is

1939
01:06:25,109 --> 01:06:22,880
there's no need to speak ill i'm not

1940
01:06:27,750 --> 01:06:25,119
judging anybody whether it's you know if

1941
01:06:30,390 --> 01:06:27,760
if dodie came up and had a perfectly

1942
01:06:33,109 --> 01:06:30,400
understandable rationale for why he had

1943
01:06:34,870 --> 01:06:33,119
to play that part that he played

1944
01:06:36,710 --> 01:06:34,880
i'd be willing to hear it

1945
01:06:38,230 --> 01:06:36,720
i mean in other words

1946
01:06:39,430 --> 01:06:38,240
you know who can say the point is he

1947
01:06:40,309 --> 01:06:39,440
deserves

1948
01:06:42,470 --> 01:06:40,319
his

1949
01:06:44,630 --> 01:06:42,480
chance to explain without just saying it

1950
01:06:46,069 --> 01:06:44,640
was my job or something especially in a

1951
01:06:47,349 --> 01:06:46,079
case like this and when i think most

1952
01:06:49,270 --> 01:06:47,359
other people

1953
01:06:50,630 --> 01:06:49,280
even i think one point john alexander

1954
01:06:51,910 --> 01:06:50,640
was kind of implying if something like

1955
01:06:52,950 --> 01:06:51,920
this really went on somebody should be

1956
01:06:54,710 --> 01:06:52,960
in jail

1957
01:06:56,549 --> 01:06:54,720
now i'm not saying that that's the case

1958
01:06:58,069 --> 01:06:56,559
it's just

1959
01:06:59,670 --> 01:06:58,079
it's kind of the casting stone thing

1960
01:07:00,950 --> 01:06:59,680
would you want someone doing that to you

1961
01:07:02,549 --> 01:07:00,960
your father

1962
01:07:04,630 --> 01:07:02,559
would you want and then coming around

1963
01:07:05,990 --> 01:07:04,640
hanging on for the next 40 years and

1964
01:07:07,670 --> 01:07:06,000
every chance you get you try to just

1965
01:07:09,430 --> 01:07:07,680
drive another nail in the coffin to keep

1966
01:07:10,870 --> 01:07:09,440
the stories shut and make him look like

1967
01:07:13,109 --> 01:07:10,880
an idiot

1968
01:07:14,549 --> 01:07:13,119
yeah and yeah i that

1969
01:07:16,630 --> 01:07:14,559
that irks me

1970
01:07:18,789 --> 01:07:16,640
especially ernest edwards the first

1971
01:07:20,390 --> 01:07:18,799
person that rich that uh paul benoit's

1972
01:07:22,069 --> 01:07:20,400
contacted the person who actually put

1973
01:07:23,670 --> 01:07:22,079
him in touch with dodie ernest edwards

1974
01:07:25,029 --> 01:07:23,680
had been talking to paul a few times but

1975
01:07:26,549 --> 01:07:25,039
like you implied

1976
01:07:29,349 --> 01:07:26,559
now he's out of the service he's retired

1977
01:07:32,309 --> 01:07:29,359
he's gone on with his life other things

1978
01:07:34,230 --> 01:07:32,319
and you would think at some point

1979
01:07:35,910 --> 01:07:34,240
if there was nothing to it you would

1980
01:07:37,109 --> 01:07:35,920
just go on with it you wouldn't keep

1981
01:07:38,390 --> 01:07:37,119
coming out

1982
01:07:40,950 --> 01:07:38,400
but i

1983
01:07:43,430 --> 01:07:40,960
took a bit of offense if i can say it

1984
01:07:44,549 --> 01:07:43,440
that way when the unidentified program

1985
01:07:46,870 --> 01:07:44,559
came out

1986
01:07:49,910 --> 01:07:46,880
and they focused on overflights over

1987
01:07:51,349 --> 01:07:49,920
nuclear you know weapons areas some of

1988
01:07:52,710 --> 01:07:51,359
them up in the northern tier in the

1989
01:07:54,470 --> 01:07:52,720
northern u.s

1990
01:07:56,789 --> 01:07:54,480
and they created i've said the story

1991
01:07:59,510 --> 01:07:56,799
before and and i actually went on when i

1992
01:08:01,109 --> 01:07:59,520
was still doing ufo updates thing on i

1993
01:08:02,150 --> 01:08:01,119
went on there and posted something on

1994
01:08:03,750 --> 01:08:02,160
there

1995
01:08:06,150 --> 01:08:03,760
because

1996
01:08:08,150 --> 01:08:06,160
of all things you have these first two

1997
01:08:10,309 --> 01:08:08,160
episodes where they have a recreation of

1998
01:08:12,549 --> 01:08:10,319
the object they even went to the actual

1999
01:08:14,950 --> 01:08:12,559
witness out of front of his yard where

2000
01:08:17,030 --> 01:08:14,960
he said he saw it they recreated it

2001
01:08:18,630 --> 01:08:17,040
showed the whole kind of ufo sequence if

2002
01:08:20,070 --> 01:08:18,640
you want to call it that

2003
01:08:22,309 --> 01:08:20,080
and then they decide to go and talk

2004
01:08:24,470 --> 01:08:22,319
about the incidents of kirtland the paul

2005
01:08:26,550 --> 01:08:24,480
benowitz incidents at kirtland

2006
01:08:28,709 --> 01:08:26,560
first off

2007
01:08:31,269 --> 01:08:28,719
there are no incidents at kirtland of

2008
01:08:33,990 --> 01:08:31,279
any consequence involving richard dodie

2009
01:08:35,910 --> 01:08:34,000
except the paul benowitz incidents

2010
01:08:37,910 --> 01:08:35,920
so right they didn't just say this is

2011
01:08:40,149 --> 01:08:37,920
the 1954 incidents they were talking

2012
01:08:41,829 --> 01:08:40,159
about these incidents they brought him

2013
01:08:46,229 --> 01:08:41,839
on

2014
01:08:48,070 --> 01:08:46,239
seemingly

2015
01:08:50,149 --> 01:08:48,080
back up you know just they kind of like

2016
01:08:52,390 --> 01:08:50,159
a tag team is the way i put it not not

2017
01:08:53,749 --> 01:08:52,400
to be you know condescending but that's

2018
01:08:55,349 --> 01:08:53,759
the impression i got because if you

2019
01:08:57,669 --> 01:08:55,359
watch the whole episode

2020
01:08:59,189 --> 01:08:57,679
there's virtually no they mention paul

2021
01:09:00,789 --> 01:08:59,199
well no i take it back i wrote the whole

2022
01:09:01,829 --> 01:09:00,799
thing they never mentioned paul's name

2023
01:09:03,990 --> 01:09:01,839
one time

2024
01:09:05,829 --> 01:09:04,000
they did not do you think that

2025
01:09:08,070 --> 01:09:05,839
do you think there was that's a what

2026
01:09:09,669 --> 01:09:08,080
they say the cutting room floor

2027
01:09:11,189 --> 01:09:09,679
in other words

2028
01:09:13,030 --> 01:09:11,199
part of my point was this if you look at

2029
01:09:14,470 --> 01:09:13,040
that in that segment on the on the

2030
01:09:16,550 --> 01:09:14,480
kirtland incidents

2031
01:09:18,070 --> 01:09:16,560
they showed and discussed really nothing

2032
01:09:20,229 --> 01:09:18,080
about

2033
01:09:21,590 --> 01:09:20,239
ufos

2034
01:09:23,829 --> 01:09:21,600
i think they even started out with a

2035
01:09:25,590 --> 01:09:23,839
clip that may have shown some russian

2036
01:09:27,749 --> 01:09:25,600
move you know movement and almost like

2037
01:09:29,189 --> 01:09:27,759
implying that this was back during the

2038
01:09:30,950 --> 01:09:29,199
cold war the russians may have been

2039
01:09:32,630 --> 01:09:30,960
snooping i don't know what

2040
01:09:34,470 --> 01:09:32,640
they showed nothing at all there was

2041
01:09:35,910 --> 01:09:34,480
only one mention i think by greg bishop

2042
01:09:37,110 --> 01:09:35,920
that you know paul called him and said

2043
01:09:38,550 --> 01:09:37,120
hey you guys know about these little

2044
01:09:39,990 --> 01:09:38,560
lights

2045
01:09:41,910 --> 01:09:40,000
and then richard dodie talking about

2046
01:09:43,669 --> 01:09:41,920
well this that but they showed no

2047
01:09:46,390 --> 01:09:43,679
recreation about anything that would

2048
01:09:49,590 --> 01:09:46,400
suggest there was a ufo involved at all

2049
01:09:51,030 --> 01:09:49,600
so why even have it on that segment

2050
01:09:53,189 --> 01:09:51,040
and then if you're going to put that

2051
01:09:54,229 --> 01:09:53,199
segment on there why bring richard dodie

2052
01:09:56,790 --> 01:09:54,239
on

2053
01:09:58,870 --> 01:09:56,800
and show nothing to at least

2054
01:10:00,470 --> 01:09:58,880
seemingly support the whole

2055
01:10:02,470 --> 01:10:00,480
point that there were these kirtland

2056
01:10:04,390 --> 01:10:02,480
incidents because paul got these films

2057
01:10:06,310 --> 01:10:04,400
and what he saw is what he called the

2058
01:10:08,950 --> 01:10:06,320
air force about

2059
01:10:13,030 --> 01:10:08,960
so i thought wait this is a hatchet job

2060
01:10:14,950 --> 01:10:13,040
basically to go on there and

2061
01:10:17,189 --> 01:10:14,960
if you're not gonna if it was not a ufo

2062
01:10:18,870 --> 01:10:17,199
incident why did they spend time and

2063
01:10:21,350 --> 01:10:18,880
money on a segment on the show there are

2064
01:10:23,350 --> 01:10:21,360
plenty of other really good

2065
01:10:25,110 --> 01:10:23,360
you know cases where you've got ufos

2066
01:10:26,790 --> 01:10:25,120
seen over nuclear weapons storage areas

2067
01:10:28,470 --> 01:10:26,800
or siding they could have like the first

2068
01:10:31,030 --> 01:10:28,480
two segments they had

2069
01:10:33,350 --> 01:10:31,040
so to this day to sit there and just act

2070
01:10:34,790 --> 01:10:33,360
like oh paul was just some guy who

2071
01:10:36,390 --> 01:10:34,800
called and said hey i'm seeing these

2072
01:10:38,149 --> 01:10:36,400
little lights

2073
01:10:39,590 --> 01:10:38,159
when in fact you know it's funny the

2074
01:10:41,430 --> 01:10:39,600
first place i ever heard little lights

2075
01:10:43,110 --> 01:10:41,440
mentioned was first time i'd ever got a

2076
01:10:44,550 --> 01:10:43,120
chance to talk to bill moore way back in

2077
01:10:45,669 --> 01:10:44,560
the day

2078
01:10:47,750 --> 01:10:45,679
when

2079
01:10:49,110 --> 01:10:47,760
i asked him about paul this is before i

2080
01:10:50,630 --> 01:10:49,120
even got involved with paul i asked him

2081
01:10:51,990 --> 01:10:50,640
about what paul saw he says oh it's just

2082
01:10:53,350 --> 01:10:52,000
what paul filmed and he said oh just

2083
01:10:54,149 --> 01:10:53,360
little lights

2084
01:10:55,830 --> 01:10:54,159
oh

2085
01:10:59,030 --> 01:10:55,840
when i got that box of pictures that

2086
01:11:01,030 --> 01:10:59,040
paul sent me and looked at those things

2087
01:11:03,590 --> 01:11:01,040
a friend of mine said these are not just

2088
01:11:06,470 --> 01:11:03,600
little lights you can actually enhance

2089
01:11:08,709 --> 01:11:06,480
even the rudimentary images that i got

2090
01:11:10,310 --> 01:11:08,719
off of the pictures he sent me you can

2091
01:11:12,950 --> 01:11:10,320
enhance and see detail in there that

2092
01:11:15,350 --> 01:11:12,960
tells you right there these are not

2093
01:11:17,750 --> 01:11:15,360
so there's been this effort whether you

2094
01:11:19,110 --> 01:11:17,760
want to say dodie's the main point man

2095
01:11:21,750 --> 01:11:19,120
on it or what

2096
01:11:24,070 --> 01:11:21,760
to really diminish

2097
01:11:27,830 --> 01:11:24,080
any credibility paul might have had by

2098
01:11:28,790 --> 01:11:27,840
putting in a whole lot of other you know

2099
01:11:30,630 --> 01:11:28,800
in the

2100
01:11:32,470 --> 01:11:30,640
the punch bowl so to speak

2101
01:11:34,870 --> 01:11:32,480
and yeah let's let's talk a little bit

2102
01:11:36,390 --> 01:11:34,880
about that let's talk about

2103
01:11:38,790 --> 01:11:36,400
what you know we talked a little bit

2104
01:11:41,350 --> 01:11:38,800
about dulce and

2105
01:11:43,350 --> 01:11:41,360
you know there there is dulce is a very

2106
01:11:45,189 --> 01:11:43,360
strange place i do want to say that

2107
01:11:47,350 --> 01:11:45,199
there's a lot of weird stuff that

2108
01:11:48,229 --> 01:11:47,360
happens there it's a very mysterious

2109
01:11:48,950 --> 01:11:48,239
place

2110
01:11:51,350 --> 01:11:48,960
but

2111
01:11:53,350 --> 01:11:51,360
uh cow mutilations all kinds of things

2112
01:11:56,149 --> 01:11:53,360
but not to say that there's an

2113
01:11:58,390 --> 01:11:56,159
underground base but that was what

2114
01:12:00,870 --> 01:11:58,400
one of the things where that all came

2115
01:12:02,950 --> 01:12:00,880
from was the disinformation so i want to

2116
01:12:04,950 --> 01:12:02,960
go through if you don't mind take a few

2117
01:12:07,270 --> 01:12:04,960
minutes here and go through some of the

2118
01:12:09,750 --> 01:12:07,280
disinformation that that

2119
01:12:12,229 --> 01:12:09,760
paul was fed over the years to get him

2120
01:12:13,350 --> 01:12:12,239
distracted away from kirkland you know

2121
01:12:15,189 --> 01:12:13,360
those uh

2122
01:12:17,430 --> 01:12:15,199
filming there

2123
01:12:20,070 --> 01:12:17,440
to the best of my knowledge and at least

2124
01:12:23,590 --> 01:12:20,080
from the early on

2125
01:12:25,830 --> 01:12:23,600
paul never was focusing on underground

2126
01:12:27,910 --> 01:12:25,840
bases at dulce

2127
01:12:29,830 --> 01:12:27,920
he had been there i think like i said in

2128
01:12:31,590 --> 01:12:29,840
late 79 he'd been there two or three

2129
01:12:33,750 --> 01:12:31,600
times once with a son i remember them

2130
01:12:36,550 --> 01:12:33,760
talking paul wrote a note about

2131
01:12:38,470 --> 01:12:36,560
them seeing some very unusual lights

2132
01:12:40,070 --> 01:12:38,480
that seem to be coming along the edge of

2133
01:12:41,189 --> 01:12:40,080
the canyon around there and his son

2134
01:12:43,030 --> 01:12:41,199
fumbling trying to get the camera to

2135
01:12:44,390 --> 01:12:43,040
work and paul was laughing about her and

2136
01:12:46,070 --> 01:12:44,400
his son cussing about trying to get the

2137
01:12:47,830 --> 01:12:46,080
camera to work at night

2138
01:12:50,310 --> 01:12:47,840
and um

2139
01:12:52,709 --> 01:12:50,320
and at the same time

2140
01:12:54,950 --> 01:12:52,719
i think over the years i've heard you

2141
01:12:56,470 --> 01:12:54,960
know we've all seen or heard reports of

2142
01:12:58,390 --> 01:12:56,480
maybe the uh

2143
01:12:59,910 --> 01:12:58,400
air force or whomever do you know doing

2144
01:13:01,750 --> 01:12:59,920
some of their trainees for parachute

2145
01:13:03,430 --> 01:13:01,760
jumping and whatnot and doing you know

2146
01:13:05,189 --> 01:13:03,440
any kind of tests in areas in the areas

2147
01:13:07,910 --> 01:13:05,199
up in that area so there may be plenty

2148
01:13:10,149 --> 01:13:07,920
of reasons why you would have

2149
01:13:11,910 --> 01:13:10,159
things done at night night you know

2150
01:13:12,950 --> 01:13:11,920
activities and whatnot

2151
01:13:14,550 --> 01:13:12,960
but

2152
01:13:17,110 --> 01:13:14,560
other than those kinds of things and

2153
01:13:18,630 --> 01:13:17,120
what paul saw after he rode around on a

2154
01:13:19,990 --> 01:13:18,640
late one of those nights with gabe

2155
01:13:21,990 --> 01:13:20,000
valdez where they saw all sorts of

2156
01:13:23,270 --> 01:13:22,000
unusual things out there which got his

2157
01:13:24,630 --> 01:13:23,280
interest in it

2158
01:13:26,950 --> 01:13:24,640
but i don't

2159
01:13:29,270 --> 01:13:26,960
recall him you know he was not focused

2160
01:13:30,950 --> 01:13:29,280
in on an underground base

2161
01:13:32,149 --> 01:13:30,960
my belief in from what i believe it's

2162
01:13:34,550 --> 01:13:32,159
correct because i think i even heard

2163
01:13:36,149 --> 01:13:34,560
some comment about this from

2164
01:13:37,750 --> 01:13:36,159
martin cannon as well but in all the

2165
01:13:40,630 --> 01:13:37,760
documentation that i've had and looked

2166
01:13:43,510 --> 01:13:40,640
at it wasn't until after for example

2167
01:13:45,750 --> 01:13:43,520
he'd call the air force

2168
01:13:47,510 --> 01:13:45,760
that then this girl murna hansen came

2169
01:13:49,110 --> 01:13:47,520
into the picture

2170
01:13:51,110 --> 01:13:49,120
and she

2171
01:13:53,350 --> 01:13:51,120
i tried my best to track how that came

2172
01:13:55,030 --> 01:13:53,360
about i'd never been able to talk to her

2173
01:13:57,110 --> 01:13:55,040
i'm not sure

2174
01:13:59,430 --> 01:13:57,120
whether she's still alive or not i mean

2175
01:14:02,950 --> 01:13:59,440
somebody else is is this someone that

2176
01:14:05,510 --> 01:14:02,960
claims she saw the aliens and all that

2177
01:14:07,510 --> 01:14:05,520
something to the effect that the story

2178
01:14:08,790 --> 01:14:07,520
this is the story that i was

2179
01:14:10,070 --> 01:14:08,800
kind of trying to track down and

2180
01:14:11,510 --> 01:14:10,080
everything i've

2181
01:14:13,430 --> 01:14:11,520
been able to come up with any kind of

2182
01:14:15,030 --> 01:14:13,440
information on it was

2183
01:14:16,070 --> 01:14:15,040
she apparently

2184
01:14:18,709 --> 01:14:16,080
had

2185
01:14:20,870 --> 01:14:18,719
been driving through the area of dulce

2186
01:14:22,950 --> 01:14:20,880
across the northern part of new mexico

2187
01:14:25,030 --> 01:14:22,960
going back to where she lived which was

2188
01:14:27,030 --> 01:14:25,040
more towards the east

2189
01:14:29,350 --> 01:14:27,040
but at some point i think when she got

2190
01:14:32,310 --> 01:14:29,360
home she contacted

2191
01:14:36,470 --> 01:14:34,310
i may be paraphrasing this she called

2192
01:14:38,709 --> 01:14:36,480
and contacted someone

2193
01:14:40,470 --> 01:14:38,719
and apparently because her story seemed

2194
01:14:44,149 --> 01:14:40,480
to imply she was in the car with her

2195
01:14:46,310 --> 01:14:44,159
young son and had seen a ufo picking up

2196
01:14:47,910 --> 01:14:46,320
a cow or something to do with abducting

2197
01:14:49,990 --> 01:14:47,920
cattle

2198
01:14:51,430 --> 01:14:50,000
and whoever she contacted knew about

2199
01:14:53,189 --> 01:14:51,440
gabe valdez

2200
01:14:54,470 --> 01:14:53,199
who had been in the cattle mutilation

2201
01:14:56,550 --> 01:14:54,480
and was kind of in the hickory

2202
01:14:58,630 --> 01:14:56,560
reservation over there and put her in

2203
01:15:00,630 --> 01:14:58,640
touch with gabe valdez

2204
01:15:02,709 --> 01:15:00,640
so when she calls and talks to gabe

2205
01:15:04,229 --> 01:15:02,719
valdez

2206
01:15:05,510 --> 01:15:04,239
for whatever reason this must have been

2207
01:15:07,910 --> 01:15:05,520
around the time that he was in

2208
01:15:11,189 --> 01:15:07,920
communication with paul benowitz as well

2209
01:15:12,870 --> 01:15:11,199
because something she described

2210
01:15:15,189 --> 01:15:12,880
made gabe

2211
01:15:17,910 --> 01:15:15,199
either refer it to paul or tell paul

2212
01:15:19,830 --> 01:15:17,920
about it and it piqued paul's interest

2213
01:15:21,990 --> 01:15:19,840
enough that he apparently brought her

2214
01:15:23,669 --> 01:15:22,000
down to his house and she may have been

2215
01:15:25,189 --> 01:15:23,679
there for several days a week something

2216
01:15:27,430 --> 01:15:25,199
like this

2217
01:15:29,030 --> 01:15:27,440
and she apparently stayed at paul's home

2218
01:15:31,990 --> 01:15:29,040
during this time

2219
01:15:33,750 --> 01:15:32,000
and this may also be the time when he

2220
01:15:35,590 --> 01:15:33,760
had leo sprinkle

2221
01:15:38,149 --> 01:15:35,600
down there who was also listening and

2222
01:15:41,430 --> 01:15:38,159
doing some regressive hypnosis on her

2223
01:15:43,590 --> 01:15:41,440
and i i'm not mistaken though

2224
01:15:45,430 --> 01:15:43,600
there was some confusion of whether she

2225
01:15:47,590 --> 01:15:45,440
was talking about some kind of

2226
01:15:49,270 --> 01:15:47,600
underground facilities

2227
01:15:51,189 --> 01:15:49,280
that may have been in the manzano

2228
01:15:53,830 --> 01:15:51,199
mountains

2229
01:15:55,510 --> 01:15:53,840
as opposed to maybe not necessarily this

2230
01:15:57,030 --> 01:15:55,520
place where she said she'd been driving

2231
01:15:58,950 --> 01:15:57,040
through northern new mexico when she

2232
01:16:01,110 --> 01:15:58,960
says she saw had this experience and saw

2233
01:16:02,790 --> 01:16:01,120
this stuff happening but for whatever

2234
01:16:03,830 --> 01:16:02,800
reason it seemed to pique paul's

2235
01:16:05,270 --> 01:16:03,840
interest

2236
01:16:07,270 --> 01:16:05,280
that right in this area he had been

2237
01:16:09,669 --> 01:16:07,280
looking into you know for months after

2238
01:16:11,430 --> 01:16:09,679
meeting gabe and whatnot is the same

2239
01:16:13,590 --> 01:16:11,440
general vicinity she's talking about

2240
01:16:16,310 --> 01:16:13,600
seems seems to be talking about where

2241
01:16:18,950 --> 01:16:16,320
she had seen this experience

2242
01:16:21,270 --> 01:16:18,960
and somewhere in all of this mix

2243
01:16:24,310 --> 01:16:21,280
it came up with the idea that

2244
01:16:27,110 --> 01:16:24,320
and i do think it probably hinged a lot

2245
01:16:29,030 --> 01:16:27,120
on her alleged hypnotic regression or

2246
01:16:31,189 --> 01:16:29,040
whatnot testimony about some underground

2247
01:16:33,350 --> 01:16:31,199
bases seeing aliens being taken into

2248
01:16:35,430 --> 01:16:33,360
some underground facility

2249
01:16:37,590 --> 01:16:35,440
that kinds of laid the groundwork for

2250
01:16:40,470 --> 01:16:37,600
the idea ah maybe there's an underground

2251
01:16:43,030 --> 01:16:40,480
facility up there in the dulce area

2252
01:16:45,030 --> 01:16:43,040
believe me i think i tried to make clear

2253
01:16:46,390 --> 01:16:45,040
in the book

2254
01:16:49,189 --> 01:16:46,400
for my part

2255
01:16:51,990 --> 01:16:49,199
i could not make any clear connection

2256
01:16:54,310 --> 01:16:52,000
definitive connection between what may

2257
01:16:56,149 --> 01:16:54,320
or had been happening in the dulce area

2258
01:16:57,910 --> 01:16:56,159
that paul is interested in

2259
01:17:00,390 --> 01:16:57,920
and his happening gig

2260
01:17:01,910 --> 01:17:00,400
film what he filmed down in albuquerque

2261
01:17:04,149 --> 01:17:01,920
other than the fact that paul was

2262
01:17:06,390 --> 01:17:04,159
involved with both of them

2263
01:17:07,830 --> 01:17:06,400
and he kind of wondered whether or not

2264
01:17:10,550 --> 01:17:07,840
when he came home that night his wife

2265
01:17:13,270 --> 01:17:10,560
had heard some noise going on and he

2266
01:17:14,630 --> 01:17:13,280
speculated gee i wonder if so whatever

2267
01:17:16,709 --> 01:17:14,640
i've been looking at followed me down

2268
01:17:18,550 --> 01:17:16,719
here and so he got up on his roof

2269
01:17:19,990 --> 01:17:18,560
it may have just been

2270
01:17:21,270 --> 01:17:20,000
good luck or bad luck however you want

2271
01:17:24,390 --> 01:17:21,280
to look at it

2272
01:17:27,590 --> 01:17:24,400
but i could not find any real definitive

2273
01:17:31,270 --> 01:17:27,600
reason for me to think that there was a

2274
01:17:34,470 --> 01:17:31,280
real connection between what he saw

2275
01:17:35,990 --> 01:17:34,480
down from his roof over the the base

2276
01:17:38,149 --> 01:17:36,000
and what if anything might have been

2277
01:17:40,870 --> 01:17:38,159
going on in the dulce area

2278
01:17:43,350 --> 01:17:40,880
so well what was some of the other

2279
01:17:45,990 --> 01:17:43,360
disinformation then if not that in

2280
01:17:47,990 --> 01:17:46,000
particular of course

2281
01:17:49,350 --> 01:17:48,000
it seems like pretty much at about the

2282
01:17:51,189 --> 01:17:49,360
time the best that i could tell was

2283
01:17:53,750 --> 01:17:51,199
about the time he began to he called

2284
01:17:55,990 --> 01:17:53,760
edwards he met dodie

2285
01:17:57,110 --> 01:17:56,000
they began to talk to me edwards had

2286
01:17:58,390 --> 01:17:57,120
said there were times he was up at

2287
01:17:59,669 --> 01:17:58,400
paul's house and paul's looking at

2288
01:18:01,590 --> 01:17:59,679
lights out there and saying do you see

2289
01:18:03,270 --> 01:18:01,600
what that is and edward's like calling

2290
01:18:05,110 --> 01:18:03,280
his men and they don't see any things i

2291
01:18:07,189 --> 01:18:05,120
don't know where to go with that but it

2292
01:18:09,510 --> 01:18:07,199
was then then the

2293
01:18:11,510 --> 01:18:09,520
merna hansen story broke

2294
01:18:13,189 --> 01:18:11,520
and the first indication that i could

2295
01:18:13,910 --> 01:18:13,199
find

2296
01:18:15,830 --> 01:18:13,920
that

2297
01:18:18,229 --> 01:18:15,840
later had been

2298
01:18:19,430 --> 01:18:18,239
maybe ascribed or brings dodie into the

2299
01:18:22,550 --> 01:18:19,440
picture

2300
01:18:24,229 --> 01:18:22,560
was what some of your listeners may

2301
01:18:25,350 --> 01:18:24,239
be able to identify as the craig what's

2302
01:18:30,790 --> 01:18:25,360
a letter

2303
01:18:32,470 --> 01:18:30,800
1980 was sent to apro

2304
01:18:34,790 --> 01:18:32,480
now

2305
01:18:36,390 --> 01:18:34,800
this was partly where i began to have

2306
01:18:40,550 --> 01:18:36,400
real doubts

2307
01:18:42,310 --> 01:18:40,560
about whether moore was just some

2308
01:18:44,870 --> 01:18:42,320
the point was moore had moved recently i

2309
01:18:46,470 --> 01:18:44,880
think down to tucson and had become like

2310
01:18:48,470 --> 01:18:46,480
the investigator some special

2311
01:18:50,229 --> 01:18:48,480
investigator with apro

2312
01:18:52,550 --> 01:18:50,239
and just as about the time he becomes

2313
01:18:54,630 --> 01:18:52,560
that this letter shows up

2314
01:18:57,430 --> 01:18:54,640
allegedly from somebody named craig

2315
01:18:59,270 --> 01:18:57,440
wetzel who may very well have existed

2316
01:19:01,030 --> 01:18:59,280
because i actually

2317
01:19:02,709 --> 01:19:01,040
got a chance to speak with him one time

2318
01:19:04,550 --> 01:19:02,719
for shortly i just tracked him down i

2319
01:19:06,390 --> 01:19:04,560
think he was in georgia at the time

2320
01:19:08,470 --> 01:19:06,400
but the point was

2321
01:19:12,390 --> 01:19:08,480
in this letter is the first mention of

2322
01:19:14,709 --> 01:19:12,400
somebody named dodie spelled d-o-d-y

2323
01:19:17,669 --> 01:19:14,719
but this letter for whatever reason is

2324
01:19:20,470 --> 01:19:17,679
sent to apro

2325
01:19:25,270 --> 01:19:22,070
apparently puts it right in the hands of

2326
01:19:28,550 --> 01:19:26,630
and the best i've been able to track

2327
01:19:29,830 --> 01:19:28,560
down it sounds like bill moore didn't do

2328
01:19:31,910 --> 01:19:29,840
anything with it

2329
01:19:34,149 --> 01:19:31,920
the claim is he did nothing with it that

2330
01:19:36,390 --> 01:19:34,159
it wasn't until later a month or two or

2331
01:19:37,590 --> 01:19:36,400
three later when he's promoting his book

2332
01:19:39,030 --> 01:19:37,600
that he begins to get these strange

2333
01:19:41,030 --> 01:19:39,040
phone calls and then finally one point

2334
01:19:42,470 --> 01:19:41,040
when he's in albuquerque he meets the

2335
01:19:44,310 --> 01:19:42,480
man with the red

2336
01:19:45,669 --> 01:19:44,320
flower and later on is introduced to

2337
01:19:48,070 --> 01:19:45,679
richard doty

2338
01:19:50,390 --> 01:19:48,080
but the coincidence

2339
01:19:53,110 --> 01:19:50,400
that somebody right when bill moore ends

2340
01:19:55,590 --> 01:19:53,120
up in apro in this position that

2341
01:19:57,990 --> 01:19:55,600
somebody then writes a letter

2342
01:19:59,430 --> 01:19:58,000
almost pleading you know come look at

2343
01:20:01,669 --> 01:19:59,440
all this weird stuff that's going on and

2344
01:20:03,430 --> 01:20:01,679
here's this guy named dodie who came and

2345
01:20:06,310 --> 01:20:03,440
talked to my friend who took this film

2346
01:20:07,669 --> 01:20:06,320
of now i don't know

2347
01:20:09,030 --> 01:20:07,679
all the rest of the story that was

2348
01:20:11,030 --> 01:20:09,040
actually had occurred but there was a

2349
01:20:12,470 --> 01:20:11,040
guy named craig wetzel so obviously

2350
01:20:14,229 --> 01:20:12,480
somebody knew

2351
01:20:16,310 --> 01:20:14,239
a guy named craig wetzel who had been

2352
01:20:18,950 --> 01:20:16,320
there and he claimed they were on this

2353
01:20:20,870 --> 01:20:18,960
outing up in the hills north of uh the

2354
01:20:22,390 --> 01:20:20,880
albuquerque santa fe area and saw an

2355
01:20:24,870 --> 01:20:22,400
object that took off as he said

2356
01:20:26,790 --> 01:20:24,880
exponentially which was kind of touched

2357
01:20:29,110 --> 01:20:26,800
on but this letter goes down there to

2358
01:20:31,270 --> 01:20:29,120
bill moore and it's given to bill moore

2359
01:20:34,550 --> 01:20:31,280
apparently by

2360
01:20:35,830 --> 01:20:34,560
jim lorenzen to investigate

2361
01:20:37,350 --> 01:20:35,840
the claim i think seems to have been

2362
01:20:38,629 --> 01:20:37,360
that bill never investigated it because

2363
01:20:39,910 --> 01:20:38,639
you would assume

2364
01:20:41,189 --> 01:20:39,920
you or i would just pick up the phone

2365
01:20:43,030 --> 01:20:41,199
and call the base and say have you got

2366
01:20:44,229 --> 01:20:43,040
somebody named dodie that works there

2367
01:20:45,830 --> 01:20:44,239
and they put you right in touch with

2368
01:20:48,229 --> 01:20:45,840
richard

2369
01:20:50,310 --> 01:20:48,239
but bill never investigates it and later

2370
01:20:51,270 --> 01:20:50,320
on he's introduced to dodie through this

2371
01:20:53,350 --> 01:20:51,280
whole

2372
01:20:55,189 --> 01:20:53,360
story as he's told it

2373
01:20:57,510 --> 01:20:55,199
but obviously it strikes me that that's

2374
01:21:01,110 --> 01:20:57,520
the first effort somebody goes from the

2375
01:21:03,750 --> 01:21:01,120
kirtland area with dodi's name in it

2376
01:21:06,550 --> 01:21:03,760
sent to apro almost

2377
01:21:09,270 --> 01:21:06,560
to give a rationale for somebody bill

2378
01:21:11,110 --> 01:21:09,280
moore in this case eventually to end up

2379
01:21:13,350 --> 01:21:11,120
having meeting richard dodie and knowing

2380
01:21:15,990 --> 01:21:13,360
richard odie and everything else kind of

2381
01:21:17,590 --> 01:21:16,000
you know digress from there

2382
01:21:19,350 --> 01:21:17,600
but speaking of

2383
01:21:21,669 --> 01:21:19,360
yeah everything kind of speaking of bill

2384
01:21:23,910 --> 01:21:21,679
moore you know bill moore is not

2385
01:21:27,189 --> 01:21:23,920
that far off

2386
01:21:28,790 --> 01:21:27,199
from dodie and and what he did

2387
01:21:29,669 --> 01:21:28,800
and you were there i know you were there

2388
01:21:33,510 --> 01:21:29,679
at the

2389
01:21:36,629 --> 01:21:33,520
bill

2390
01:21:39,110 --> 01:21:36,639
actually

2391
01:21:40,470 --> 01:21:39,120
told the truth about what he was doing

2392
01:21:41,830 --> 01:21:40,480
yeah yeah

2393
01:21:44,629 --> 01:21:41,840
just for the person that never heard

2394
01:21:46,470 --> 01:21:44,639
that story is there uh i know we still

2395
01:21:48,470 --> 01:21:46,480
have we're going to be taking calls here

2396
01:21:51,470 --> 01:21:48,480
in a few minutes and i know we said

2397
01:21:53,110 --> 01:21:51,480
we're going to be talking about the

2398
01:21:55,189 --> 01:21:53,120
ousd

2399
01:21:57,430 --> 01:21:55,199
uh i when they stepped in to kill harry

2400
01:21:58,870 --> 01:21:57,440
reid's bill and all that

2401
01:22:00,550 --> 01:21:58,880
we still want to cover that if we can

2402
01:22:02,470 --> 01:22:00,560
get to it but

2403
01:22:04,629 --> 01:22:02,480
can you quickly tell

2404
01:22:07,030 --> 01:22:04,639
who bill moore was he was a great

2405
01:22:09,910 --> 01:22:07,040
researcher but ended up kind of went to

2406
01:22:11,590 --> 01:22:09,920
the other side in disinformation well i

2407
01:22:13,189 --> 01:22:11,600
don't know i mean i had i had my

2408
01:22:14,310 --> 01:22:13,199
questions now but once again you know

2409
01:22:16,390 --> 01:22:14,320
things that you may not get an answer

2410
01:22:18,310 --> 01:22:16,400
for but bill was

2411
01:22:19,990 --> 01:22:18,320
a person who

2412
01:22:22,149 --> 01:22:20,000
apparently trained in russian language

2413
01:22:23,510 --> 01:22:22,159
and was doing i think some teaching up

2414
01:22:24,870 --> 01:22:23,520
north i may have some of this wrong but

2415
01:22:26,149 --> 01:22:24,880
i don't think it's a major part but he

2416
01:22:28,709 --> 01:22:26,159
had begun to write

2417
01:22:30,070 --> 01:22:28,719
books um i believe the first book he

2418
01:22:33,430 --> 01:22:30,080
came out with

2419
01:22:35,430 --> 01:22:33,440
was um with uh

2420
01:22:36,870 --> 01:22:35,440
i think of the roswell book and may

2421
01:22:39,110 --> 01:22:36,880
actually no i take it back

2422
01:22:41,270 --> 01:22:39,120
he missed no he did the roswell book

2423
01:22:42,470 --> 01:22:41,280
yeah his first book may have helped had

2424
01:22:43,750 --> 01:22:42,480
to do with kind of the philadelphia

2425
01:22:45,669 --> 01:22:43,760
experiment if i may have these

2426
01:22:46,790 --> 01:22:45,679
backgrounds but he was becoming known at

2427
01:22:48,470 --> 01:22:46,800
the time

2428
01:22:49,590 --> 01:22:48,480
and he had written the book on roswell

2429
01:22:50,870 --> 01:22:49,600
with uh

2430
01:22:52,550 --> 01:22:50,880
i'll think of the other guy's name right

2431
01:22:54,550 --> 01:22:52,560
now the other guy's name was on this was

2432
01:22:56,149 --> 01:22:54,560
first but i think bill justifiably had

2433
01:22:58,470 --> 01:22:56,159
done all the work

2434
01:22:59,270 --> 01:22:58,480
and so he was making a name for himself

2435
01:23:01,030 --> 01:22:59,280
and

2436
01:23:04,790 --> 01:23:01,040
he was always kind of

2437
01:23:06,310 --> 01:23:04,800
hard to read in my opinion um

2438
01:23:08,310 --> 01:23:06,320
you know personalities are what they are

2439
01:23:10,390 --> 01:23:08,320
but needless to say he was making the

2440
01:23:11,510 --> 01:23:10,400
rounds and becoming popular

2441
01:23:13,110 --> 01:23:11,520
and

2442
01:23:15,110 --> 01:23:13,120
the best i can recall his involvement

2443
01:23:17,270 --> 01:23:15,120
with this was he was on kind of a book

2444
01:23:19,510 --> 01:23:17,280
tour for this book

2445
01:23:21,189 --> 01:23:19,520
and was clear to him

2446
01:23:23,750 --> 01:23:21,199
he was going to a mufon conference at

2447
01:23:25,590 --> 01:23:23,760
some point and would make stops at radio

2448
01:23:27,270 --> 01:23:25,600
stations along the way

2449
01:23:29,590 --> 01:23:27,280
and somewhere along the way this is i

2450
01:23:30,629 --> 01:23:29,600
believe the latter part of 1980 so it

2451
01:23:31,990 --> 01:23:30,639
would have been

2452
01:23:33,750 --> 01:23:32,000
at some point

2453
01:23:36,149 --> 01:23:33,760
right before he meets

2454
01:23:38,229 --> 01:23:36,159
allegedly meets uh richard doty

2455
01:23:39,669 --> 01:23:38,239
and he gets phone calls hey we here

2456
01:23:42,470 --> 01:23:39,679
think you're the guy that we think who

2457
01:23:44,149 --> 01:23:42,480
knows the most about this yada yada yada

2458
01:23:45,669 --> 01:23:44,159
story seemed to be though that he had

2459
01:23:48,550 --> 01:23:45,679
gone okay

2460
01:23:51,110 --> 01:23:48,560
and it come back and was in albuquerque

2461
01:23:53,030 --> 01:23:51,120
doing another radio show it's very and

2462
01:23:55,910 --> 01:23:53,040
somebody arranged to want to meet him or

2463
01:23:58,790 --> 01:23:55,920
something to that oh it's going again

2464
01:24:03,669 --> 01:24:00,070
all right

2465
01:24:05,510 --> 01:24:03,679
yes um we have yeah it's my end for some

2466
01:24:07,750 --> 01:24:05,520
reason the internet's kicking out but

2467
01:24:09,830 --> 01:24:07,760
you'll be able to continue on there if

2468
01:24:11,830 --> 01:24:09,840
that happens um i always

2469
01:24:14,550 --> 01:24:11,840
i can always link to my i can link to my

2470
01:24:16,149 --> 01:24:14,560
phone if i have to but yeah just

2471
01:24:18,870 --> 01:24:16,159
needless to say the story seems to have

2472
01:24:20,070 --> 01:24:18,880
been that bill moore then arranges to

2473
01:24:22,229 --> 01:24:20,080
meet

2474
01:24:23,510 --> 01:24:22,239
whoever has been calling him saying we

2475
01:24:24,550 --> 01:24:23,520
think you're the guy who sounds like he

2476
01:24:25,430 --> 01:24:24,560
knows

2477
01:24:27,350 --> 01:24:25,440
the best

2478
01:24:28,470 --> 01:24:27,360
attitude about this whatever

2479
01:24:30,629 --> 01:24:28,480
and he

2480
01:24:31,830 --> 01:24:30,639
goes to a restaurant of some something

2481
01:24:33,510 --> 01:24:31,840
in albuquerque and he's waiting in the

2482
01:24:34,870 --> 01:24:33,520
car to see who walks in and a guy taps

2483
01:24:36,950 --> 01:24:34,880
on his window

2484
01:24:40,070 --> 01:24:36,960
with a guy with a flower and they go in

2485
01:24:41,510 --> 01:24:40,080
and he has this conversation

2486
01:24:43,669 --> 01:24:41,520
but there's some other information i

2487
01:24:45,189 --> 01:24:43,679
found that suggested

2488
01:24:47,110 --> 01:24:45,199
some things may have been coming down

2489
01:24:50,149 --> 01:24:47,120
with bill moore

2490
01:24:52,629 --> 01:24:50,159
back in tucson before all of this other

2491
01:24:55,430 --> 01:24:52,639
you know kind of a cloak and dagger kind

2492
01:24:57,430 --> 01:24:55,440
of story line he meets this guy

2493
01:24:58,950 --> 01:24:57,440
somewhere along the line within a

2494
01:24:59,910 --> 01:24:58,960
few weeks

2495
01:25:01,510 --> 01:24:59,920
he's

2496
01:25:03,030 --> 01:25:01,520
introduced to richard dodie richard

2497
01:25:05,910 --> 01:25:03,040
dodie is kind of now the point of

2498
01:25:07,990 --> 01:25:05,920
contact however it actually occurred you

2499
01:25:09,910 --> 01:25:08,000
know it's not absolutely clear

2500
01:25:11,350 --> 01:25:09,920
but at that point it's bill and richard

2501
01:25:12,950 --> 01:25:11,360
dodie

2502
01:25:14,950 --> 01:25:12,960
so richard dodi is

2503
01:25:16,709 --> 01:25:14,960
bill is reporting back like a mole or

2504
01:25:18,950 --> 01:25:16,719
however you want to call it

2505
01:25:21,350 --> 01:25:18,960
from what's going on and his i think he

2506
01:25:22,629 --> 01:25:21,360
felt that his job would have been to

2507
01:25:24,310 --> 01:25:22,639
pick up on what paul's doing and

2508
01:25:27,110 --> 01:25:24,320
thinking and at least convey the

2509
01:25:29,189 --> 01:25:27,120
information back to doty

2510
01:25:31,430 --> 01:25:29,199
but at some point seems to have

2511
01:25:34,310 --> 01:25:31,440
potentially become a two-way street

2512
01:25:37,030 --> 01:25:34,320
because even what we refer to now as the

2513
01:25:39,350 --> 01:25:37,040
mj-12 telex which not a lot of your

2514
01:25:41,669 --> 01:25:39,360
listeners may realize the first mention

2515
01:25:43,669 --> 01:25:41,679
of mj12

2516
01:25:45,510 --> 01:25:43,679
was in a document

2517
01:25:47,110 --> 01:25:45,520
according to the story

2518
01:25:48,709 --> 01:25:47,120
that doty

2519
01:25:50,229 --> 01:25:48,719
seems to have handed to bill moore

2520
01:25:52,070 --> 01:25:50,239
intending for bill moore to pass it to

2521
01:25:53,510 --> 01:25:52,080
paul benowitz

2522
01:25:55,510 --> 01:25:53,520
it had some other information in it

2523
01:25:57,830 --> 01:25:55,520
including the name of jerry miller

2524
01:25:59,669 --> 01:25:57,840
but bill's the story was bill kind of

2525
01:26:01,990 --> 01:25:59,679
may have told paul hey i'm not sure

2526
01:26:04,310 --> 01:26:02,000
about this you know what this is is it

2527
01:26:07,030 --> 01:26:04,320
disinformation so maybe best to just sit

2528
01:26:09,830 --> 01:26:07,040
on it and it seems like

2529
01:26:11,669 --> 01:26:09,840
paul did sit on it

2530
01:26:13,430 --> 01:26:11,679
then again if it's just information why

2531
01:26:15,430 --> 01:26:13,440
would you put the name mj12 in it if it

2532
01:26:17,430 --> 01:26:15,440
really was anything legitimate why would

2533
01:26:18,629 --> 01:26:17,440
you give that away just to disinform

2534
01:26:20,229 --> 01:26:18,639
paul binowitz

2535
01:26:22,629 --> 01:26:20,239
and then within about two or three years

2536
01:26:25,590 --> 01:26:22,639
1983 i think suddenly

2537
01:26:27,430 --> 01:26:25,600
jamie chandarey is getting in who was

2538
01:26:29,110 --> 01:26:27,440
worked closely with bill at the time is

2539
01:26:31,430 --> 01:26:29,120
getting these rolls of film that had

2540
01:26:32,870 --> 01:26:31,440
these mj-12 documents in it

2541
01:26:34,390 --> 01:26:32,880
but now it's supposed to be a big huge

2542
01:26:37,830 --> 01:26:34,400
thing and ever since then it's taken on

2543
01:26:40,070 --> 01:26:37,840
a life of its own but all of this at the

2544
01:26:41,270 --> 01:26:40,080
time was information that seems to have

2545
01:26:43,350 --> 01:26:41,280
been

2546
01:26:45,350 --> 01:26:43,360
intended targeted to get to paul

2547
01:26:47,189 --> 01:26:45,360
benowitz as though just one more effort

2548
01:26:49,430 --> 01:26:47,199
to shove disinformation into him so if

2549
01:26:51,510 --> 01:26:49,440
he spreads it and that's the story i

2550
01:26:53,750 --> 01:26:51,520
believe is if he spread it then they

2551
01:26:56,149 --> 01:26:53,760
could crush him right he spreads this

2552
01:26:57,990 --> 01:26:56,159
information they prove it's all a bogus

2553
01:27:00,070 --> 01:26:58,000
and once again it just damages his

2554
01:27:01,270 --> 01:27:00,080
reputation even more

2555
01:27:02,550 --> 01:27:01,280
and

2556
01:27:04,470 --> 01:27:02,560
you know i'll mention something on the

2557
01:27:06,229 --> 01:27:04,480
side if you've got two minutes here

2558
01:27:07,110 --> 01:27:06,239
that yeah i had not ever

2559
01:27:09,590 --> 01:27:07,120
before

2560
01:27:12,310 --> 01:27:09,600
and it goes to this idea that

2561
01:27:13,510 --> 01:27:12,320
apparently there are factions or people

2562
01:27:15,830 --> 01:27:13,520
in our

2563
01:27:17,350 --> 01:27:15,840
government military intelligence sources

2564
01:27:19,189 --> 01:27:17,360
or agencies

2565
01:27:21,350 --> 01:27:19,199
who will do this kind of thing and i've

2566
01:27:23,189 --> 01:27:21,360
never heard this story before but it was

2567
01:27:25,350 --> 01:27:23,199
in the interview with eric weinstein

2568
01:27:27,510 --> 01:27:25,360
where he talks about how years ago back

2569
01:27:29,590 --> 01:27:27,520
in the 50s 60s

2570
01:27:31,669 --> 01:27:29,600
the fbi i can't recall her name right

2571
01:27:33,270 --> 01:27:31,679
now i've got it in my notes

2572
01:27:35,430 --> 01:27:33,280
there was a woman who i don't know what

2573
01:27:38,229 --> 01:27:35,440
her pro what the issue was but the fbi

2574
01:27:38,950 --> 01:27:38,239
had apparently made a request

2575
01:27:40,870 --> 01:27:38,960
to

2576
01:27:43,430 --> 01:27:40,880
put out a disinformation through a

2577
01:27:45,189 --> 01:27:43,440
newspaper source they had

2578
01:27:47,510 --> 01:27:45,199
that implicated that her she was

2579
01:27:49,750 --> 01:27:47,520
pregnant that her was her son was not

2580
01:27:52,950 --> 01:27:49,760
the son of her french husband it was the

2581
01:27:55,590 --> 01:27:52,960
son of a black panther party member

2582
01:27:57,430 --> 01:27:55,600
and here's this they show the document

2583
01:27:59,430 --> 01:27:57,440
that the fbi is requesting permission to

2584
01:28:01,830 --> 01:27:59,440
do this to basically

2585
01:28:04,229 --> 01:28:01,840
damage her credibility

2586
01:28:05,510 --> 01:28:04,239
for whatever reason um but isn't that

2587
01:28:07,270 --> 01:28:05,520
crazy

2588
01:28:09,590 --> 01:28:07,280
yeah i mean

2589
01:28:11,990 --> 01:28:09,600
why didn't somebody go to jail for that

2590
01:28:14,870 --> 01:28:12,000
but the point i'm getting at is i think

2591
01:28:16,870 --> 01:28:14,880
the reality is it would be ultimately

2592
01:28:20,390 --> 01:28:16,880
naive

2593
01:28:23,030 --> 01:28:20,400
to not just expect that somewhere

2594
01:28:24,629 --> 01:28:23,040
and i think even in that same interview

2595
01:28:27,430 --> 01:28:24,639
how put off was kind of acknowledging

2596
01:28:29,750 --> 01:28:27,440
that point that there are

2597
01:28:31,750 --> 01:28:29,760
let's just say some people in these lo

2598
01:28:32,950 --> 01:28:31,760
these agencies who feel that that is

2599
01:28:35,110 --> 01:28:32,960
their job

2600
01:28:37,189 --> 01:28:35,120
to spread the stigma or spread the

2601
01:28:37,990 --> 01:28:37,199
disinformation

2602
01:28:39,510 --> 01:28:38,000
and

2603
01:28:41,669 --> 01:28:39,520
honestly our congressmen who are

2604
01:28:43,990 --> 01:28:41,679
supposedly now putting out this need to

2605
01:28:45,669 --> 01:28:44,000
be updated on the uap situation and what

2606
01:28:48,229 --> 01:28:45,679
what's going on

2607
01:28:50,390 --> 01:28:48,239
there needs to be some

2608
01:28:51,910 --> 01:28:50,400
come to jesus moment or somebody needs

2609
01:28:54,149 --> 01:28:51,920
to have an accounting

2610
01:28:56,310 --> 01:28:54,159
where right all of this type of thing is

2611
01:28:58,229 --> 01:28:56,320
brought out because how do you know at

2612
01:28:59,030 --> 01:28:58,239
what point don't you deserve justice for

2613
01:29:00,870 --> 01:28:59,040
that

2614
01:29:03,510 --> 01:29:00,880
you know you all tries to

2615
01:29:05,750 --> 01:29:03,520
so yeah here's a question here are you

2616
01:29:08,390 --> 01:29:05,760
aware why did hal put off

2617
01:29:09,830 --> 01:29:08,400
employee rick dodie are you aware of the

2618
01:29:14,550 --> 01:29:09,840
people that i know of who have asked

2619
01:29:17,590 --> 01:29:15,830
there's a guy who

2620
01:29:19,590 --> 01:29:17,600
knows alan these people far better than

2621
01:29:21,510 --> 01:29:19,600
i do that we all know a very well-known

2622
01:29:22,950 --> 01:29:21,520
person who has expressed the exact same

2623
01:29:25,430 --> 01:29:22,960
kind of shock

2624
01:29:27,910 --> 01:29:25,440
i don't know why i'm not saying

2625
01:29:29,830 --> 01:29:27,920
how has i mean to me

2626
01:29:31,270 --> 01:29:29,840
i don't know how do you escape the

2627
01:29:33,270 --> 01:29:31,280
you know we're all known by the company

2628
01:29:34,870 --> 01:29:33,280
we keep you know birds of a feather how

2629
01:29:36,790 --> 01:29:34,880
do we how do you escape that i don't

2630
01:29:38,390 --> 01:29:36,800
know how unless you come out in it and

2631
01:29:41,189 --> 01:29:38,400
acknowledge why but

2632
01:29:43,110 --> 01:29:41,199
i'm only thing i can say is

2633
01:29:45,430 --> 01:29:43,120
either

2634
01:29:46,950 --> 01:29:45,440
dodie sold himself to somebody for some

2635
01:29:48,390 --> 01:29:46,960
purpose that they thought and they did

2636
01:29:50,149 --> 01:29:48,400
not know

2637
01:29:52,390 --> 01:29:50,159
the you know what the potential

2638
01:29:54,550 --> 01:29:52,400
connections might be or hal had some

2639
01:29:56,390 --> 01:29:54,560
reason of his own you know that's a not

2640
01:29:58,070 --> 01:29:56,400
this to be fair it's something i don't

2641
01:30:00,149 --> 01:29:58,080
really have

2642
01:30:02,149 --> 01:30:00,159
any good answer for it it'd be best to

2643
01:30:02,870 --> 01:30:02,159
ask hal you know or richard dodie what

2644
01:30:08,070 --> 01:30:02,880
was

2645
01:30:10,310 --> 01:30:08,080
put him on your payroll knowing the

2646
01:30:11,750 --> 01:30:10,320
stigma there's that word again right the

2647
01:30:14,070 --> 01:30:11,760
stigma that you're gonna have to your

2648
01:30:16,470 --> 01:30:14,080
reputation i don't know that's another

2649
01:30:18,709 --> 01:30:16,480
question i'm stumped by

2650
01:30:20,310 --> 01:30:18,719
so the number is eight five five four

2651
01:30:23,910 --> 01:30:20,320
seven two five four eight three if you'd

2652
01:30:24,870 --> 01:30:23,920
like to call in bill is standing by

2653
01:30:30,709 --> 01:30:24,880
so

2654
01:30:33,669 --> 01:30:30,719
what actually would you say that drove

2655
01:30:35,510 --> 01:30:33,679
paul kind of over the edge because he

2656
01:30:37,350 --> 01:30:35,520
i believe i i don't want to get this

2657
01:30:39,270 --> 01:30:37,360
wrong but i think he eventually had to

2658
01:30:40,790 --> 01:30:39,280
be institutionalized

2659
01:30:44,149 --> 01:30:40,800
at some point

2660
01:30:47,430 --> 01:30:44,159
that's my understanding um

2661
01:30:50,709 --> 01:30:47,440
the best as i said uh the

2662
01:30:51,750 --> 01:30:50,719
the last that i ever heard from paul

2663
01:30:54,310 --> 01:30:51,760
was

2664
01:30:56,390 --> 01:30:54,320
sometime shortly after john lear had

2665
01:30:57,510 --> 01:30:56,400
gone to visit him

2666
01:31:00,550 --> 01:30:57,520
and

2667
01:31:01,590 --> 01:31:00,560
i'm not sure what happened at that point

2668
01:31:03,510 --> 01:31:01,600
and this was

2669
01:31:05,430 --> 01:31:03,520
back in the you know late 80s whatever

2670
01:31:06,709 --> 01:31:05,440
when i suddenly got a call linda howe

2671
01:31:08,709 --> 01:31:06,719
actually called me and said have you

2672
01:31:10,470 --> 01:31:08,719
heard from paul lately and i'm like no i

2673
01:31:12,470 --> 01:31:10,480
hadn't you know and she goes well his

2674
01:31:14,070 --> 01:31:12,480
number's been totally disconnected

2675
01:31:16,310 --> 01:31:14,080
unlisted

2676
01:31:18,390 --> 01:31:16,320
and i was like whoa

2677
01:31:20,870 --> 01:31:18,400
well i had gotten a call from paul

2678
01:31:22,070 --> 01:31:20,880
before this i mean in other words it was

2679
01:31:23,430 --> 01:31:22,080
may have been a month or a month and a

2680
01:31:25,830 --> 01:31:23,440
half in between i didn't talk to paul

2681
01:31:27,669 --> 01:31:25,840
every day that wasn't the point but

2682
01:31:30,149 --> 01:31:27,679
but sometime shortly after bill left

2683
01:31:33,350 --> 01:31:30,159
paul called and he was madder than i

2684
01:31:35,270 --> 01:31:33,360
have ever heard him i mean livid it was

2685
01:31:37,430 --> 01:31:35,280
all i could do to just

2686
01:31:38,310 --> 01:31:37,440
i i you know that kind of a thing i like

2687
01:31:40,629 --> 01:31:38,320
well

2688
01:31:42,310 --> 01:31:40,639
what happened in the best time

2689
01:31:43,990 --> 01:31:42,320
best i've been able to determine at

2690
01:31:46,310 --> 01:31:44,000
least the best i ever knew and will ever

2691
01:31:48,149 --> 01:31:46,320
know was there seemed to have been

2692
01:31:51,189 --> 01:31:48,159
something that

2693
01:31:53,110 --> 01:31:51,199
john promised or john was going to do

2694
01:31:54,950 --> 01:31:53,120
that may have had to do with putting

2695
01:31:57,270 --> 01:31:54,960
paul in to connect some connections with

2696
01:31:58,709 --> 01:31:57,280
other people i don't know i wasn't there

2697
01:31:59,669 --> 01:31:58,719
you know i didn't have anything to do

2698
01:32:01,430 --> 01:31:59,679
with

2699
01:32:02,390 --> 01:32:01,440
john going to see paul but he went there

2700
01:32:04,390 --> 01:32:02,400
and

2701
01:32:06,390 --> 01:32:04,400
then apparently when he left a week or

2702
01:32:07,750 --> 01:32:06,400
so afterwards paul was called me up and

2703
01:32:09,510 --> 01:32:07,760
he was livid

2704
01:32:10,709 --> 01:32:09,520
but we were on decent terms at that i

2705
01:32:12,550 --> 01:32:10,719
mean in other words he was mad about

2706
01:32:14,790 --> 01:32:12,560
that but he did call me

2707
01:32:17,189 --> 01:32:14,800
and we just talked and i and when i hung

2708
01:32:19,110 --> 01:32:17,199
up i thought well wow that was something

2709
01:32:20,709 --> 01:32:19,120
but it never i never anticipated it

2710
01:32:21,990 --> 01:32:20,719
would go anything more than that and

2711
01:32:24,229 --> 01:32:22,000
then linda howe called and said if you

2712
01:32:26,790 --> 01:32:24,239
talk to paul no no so then i called this

2713
01:32:28,149 --> 01:32:26,800
number immediately and it was kind of at

2714
01:32:31,189 --> 01:32:28,159
the request of the family the phone

2715
01:32:33,669 --> 01:32:31,199
numbers now enlisted

2716
01:32:34,629 --> 01:32:33,679
i think i wrote him letters

2717
01:32:41,189 --> 01:32:34,639
i

2718
01:32:42,629 --> 01:32:41,199
and yeah that's too bad

2719
01:32:43,990 --> 01:32:42,639
too bad that was the last time you heard

2720
01:32:45,430 --> 01:32:44,000
from him yeah

2721
01:32:47,110 --> 01:32:45,440
the best that i've been able to pick up

2722
01:32:49,350 --> 01:32:47,120
on and maybe other people can fill in

2723
01:32:51,270 --> 01:32:49,360
the blanks was that maybe the family

2724
01:32:52,470 --> 01:32:51,280
just had some intervention at some point

2725
01:32:53,590 --> 01:32:52,480
and

2726
01:32:55,910 --> 01:32:53,600
that may have been a time when they

2727
01:32:58,070 --> 01:32:55,920
decided he needed something and part of

2728
01:33:00,070 --> 01:32:58,080
it was to not be involved in this but

2729
01:33:02,149 --> 01:33:00,080
then later on i understood he had gone

2730
01:33:03,830 --> 01:33:02,159
into hospice and i don't know if that

2731
01:33:06,470 --> 01:33:03,840
the term institutionalized is

2732
01:33:09,030 --> 01:33:06,480
necessarily the correct word if he's

2733
01:33:10,709 --> 01:33:09,040
simply been ill i do know he smoked a

2734
01:33:13,590 --> 01:33:10,719
lot the one time i went to his house and

2735
01:33:14,950 --> 01:33:13,600
met him my friend tom was with me and

2736
01:33:16,070 --> 01:33:14,960
he thought we were the pizza guy

2737
01:33:17,270 --> 01:33:16,080
otherwise i don't think he would have

2738
01:33:18,709 --> 01:33:17,280
opened the door

2739
01:33:20,229 --> 01:33:18,719
we knocked on the door he opened it and

2740
01:33:22,229 --> 01:33:20,239
he was looking out there he's very

2741
01:33:23,830 --> 01:33:22,239
scruffy looking and smoked a lot he just

2742
01:33:26,070 --> 01:33:23,840
said i thought you were the pizza guy

2743
01:33:27,750 --> 01:33:26,080
and but he let us in a very very very

2744
01:33:29,030 --> 01:33:27,760
nice house i mean i just remember seeing

2745
01:33:30,629 --> 01:33:29,040
his wife in the background and we talked

2746
01:33:32,070 --> 01:33:30,639
to him for a little while

2747
01:33:33,990 --> 01:33:32,080
um

2748
01:33:36,390 --> 01:33:34,000
but as i said this was

2749
01:33:38,070 --> 01:33:36,400
well down the road into where he'd kind

2750
01:33:40,470 --> 01:33:38,080
of gone out

2751
01:33:41,669 --> 01:33:40,480
into the nether sphere that reaches of

2752
01:33:43,910 --> 01:33:41,679
reality

2753
01:33:46,149 --> 01:33:43,920
and i don't know you know going back to

2754
01:33:47,910 --> 01:33:46,159
the belief thing

2755
01:33:49,430 --> 01:33:47,920
i don't know whether he just at some

2756
01:33:53,350 --> 01:33:49,440
point

2757
01:33:57,110 --> 01:33:55,189
that

2758
01:33:58,550 --> 01:33:57,120
you know something i've heard recently

2759
01:33:59,990 --> 01:33:58,560
about the controversy between arthur

2760
01:34:01,510 --> 01:34:00,000
conan doyle and houdini over

2761
01:34:03,910 --> 01:34:01,520
spiritualism

2762
01:34:05,510 --> 01:34:03,920
and how conan doyle believes so strongly

2763
01:34:07,910 --> 01:34:05,520
that it was real

2764
01:34:10,070 --> 01:34:07,920
that he just anybody who didn't believe

2765
01:34:11,669 --> 01:34:10,080
it was a mortal enemy

2766
01:34:13,910 --> 01:34:11,679
but i've wondered at times can people

2767
01:34:17,350 --> 01:34:13,920
become so convinced that i could not

2768
01:34:20,790 --> 01:34:19,110
that you will never come back

2769
01:34:23,350 --> 01:34:20,800
you know maybe paul was so even when

2770
01:34:24,709 --> 01:34:23,360
richard doty allegedly kind of tried to

2771
01:34:26,070 --> 01:34:24,719
go and say hey you know i was just doing

2772
01:34:27,910 --> 01:34:26,080
my job you know

2773
01:34:29,270 --> 01:34:27,920
and the impression is paul's like hey no

2774
01:34:31,669 --> 01:34:29,280
worries you know

2775
01:34:34,550 --> 01:34:31,679
that maybe paul just really believed so

2776
01:34:36,229 --> 01:34:34,560
strongly in what he had done

2777
01:34:38,709 --> 01:34:36,239
that i don't know is it possible to

2778
01:34:39,910 --> 01:34:38,719
drive somebody so far out in the outer

2779
01:34:42,229 --> 01:34:39,920
limits

2780
01:34:43,270 --> 01:34:42,239
in their own mind that it fragments they

2781
01:34:45,350 --> 01:34:43,280
fracture

2782
01:34:46,709 --> 01:34:45,360
and now there's no coming back because

2783
01:34:47,990 --> 01:34:46,719
they will never

2784
01:34:50,070 --> 01:34:48,000
admit

2785
01:34:51,750 --> 01:34:50,080
they could have been played

2786
01:34:53,510 --> 01:34:51,760
you know it's like at the end of uh

2787
01:34:55,109 --> 01:34:53,520
anyway but anyway the point was i don't

2788
01:34:57,270 --> 01:34:55,119
know it just makes you wonder whether at

2789
01:34:58,470 --> 01:34:57,280
that point you do begin to fracture

2790
01:35:01,030 --> 01:34:58,480
emotionally

2791
01:35:03,270 --> 01:35:01,040
because the conflict between

2792
01:35:05,030 --> 01:35:03,280
one side well it's like that

2793
01:35:06,870 --> 01:35:05,040
yeah it's kind of like the gas lighting

2794
01:35:08,550 --> 01:35:06,880
you know i mean yeah where that term

2795
01:35:09,830 --> 01:35:08,560
comes exactly

2796
01:35:11,910 --> 01:35:09,840
at some point you believe you would

2797
01:35:13,350 --> 01:35:11,920
recognize it if you were being gaslit

2798
01:35:14,950 --> 01:35:13,360
and even when you know you are being

2799
01:35:16,390 --> 01:35:14,960
gaslit and somebody tries to admit it

2800
01:35:17,910 --> 01:35:16,400
then you come up with some explanation

2801
01:35:20,390 --> 01:35:17,920
no they're just doing that now because

2802
01:35:22,070 --> 01:35:20,400
of you know whatever else and

2803
01:35:23,510 --> 01:35:22,080
i don't know it's just a problem that we

2804
01:35:25,430 --> 01:35:23,520
all need to

2805
01:35:28,870 --> 01:35:25,440
don't hold so tightly you know that you

2806
01:35:30,870 --> 01:35:28,880
can't turn around you know and go back

2807
01:35:32,790 --> 01:35:30,880
yeah well i would suggest if anyone has

2808
01:35:34,709 --> 01:35:32,800
any questions about the paul bennowitz

2809
01:35:36,629 --> 01:35:34,719
case if you'd like to call in now

2810
01:35:40,950 --> 01:35:36,639
because we're going to change the topic

2811
01:35:44,310 --> 01:35:42,950
so it's kind of a you know overall it's

2812
01:35:46,070 --> 01:35:44,320
kind of a sad

2813
01:35:46,870 --> 01:35:46,080
situation if you really think about the

2814
01:35:49,990 --> 01:35:46,880
whole

2815
01:35:52,149 --> 01:35:50,000
trying

2816
01:35:54,070 --> 01:35:52,159
to do something that he thought as a

2817
01:35:56,470 --> 01:35:54,080
patriot he was just trying to do

2818
01:35:59,030 --> 01:35:56,480
something that he thought was right

2819
01:35:59,990 --> 01:35:59,040
and you know he knew something was going

2820
01:36:00,950 --> 01:36:00,000
on

2821
01:36:03,030 --> 01:36:00,960
and

2822
01:36:04,870 --> 01:36:03,040
so he just got

2823
01:36:07,189 --> 01:36:04,880
stirred in a different st you know

2824
01:36:09,510 --> 01:36:07,199
steered in a different direction

2825
01:36:10,709 --> 01:36:09,520
i don't know how harmful it was

2826
01:36:13,510 --> 01:36:10,719
like you said

2827
01:36:14,310 --> 01:36:13,520
we don't really know how harmful it was

2828
01:36:16,310 --> 01:36:14,320
uh

2829
01:36:17,669 --> 01:36:16,320
for what the disinformation that was

2830
01:36:19,669 --> 01:36:17,679
thrown at him

2831
01:36:20,790 --> 01:36:19,679
we don't really know what it did to him

2832
01:36:23,189 --> 01:36:20,800
you know

2833
01:36:25,350 --> 01:36:23,199
uh we weren't there so but you you must

2834
01:36:26,950 --> 01:36:25,360
have you know you're you're one of these

2835
01:36:29,590 --> 01:36:26,960
people that have really looked into this

2836
01:36:31,350 --> 01:36:29,600
deeply so if anyone

2837
01:36:33,750 --> 01:36:31,360
would know anything about it i have to

2838
01:36:35,189 --> 01:36:33,760
think how important

2839
01:36:37,350 --> 01:36:35,199
would it be

2840
01:36:38,950 --> 01:36:37,360
that you could not just go to you know

2841
01:36:40,470 --> 01:36:38,960
over in britain i think they give these

2842
01:36:41,990 --> 01:36:40,480
uh national security letters or

2843
01:36:43,430 --> 01:36:42,000
something that you couldn't just go to

2844
01:36:44,629 --> 01:36:43,440
someone like paul and say dude you saw

2845
01:36:46,709 --> 01:36:44,639
something you're not supposed to see

2846
01:36:49,350 --> 01:36:46,719
this is a very classified project

2847
01:36:51,590 --> 01:36:49,360
your company has got a lot of you know

2848
01:36:54,390 --> 01:36:51,600
contracts with all sorts of military

2849
01:36:56,070 --> 01:36:54,400
locations that we might interfere with

2850
01:36:58,310 --> 01:36:56,080
or we or we'll give you many more you

2851
01:37:00,470 --> 01:36:58,320
know and something tells me a patriot

2852
01:37:02,470 --> 01:37:00,480
even dodie at one point said paul's very

2853
01:37:04,470 --> 01:37:02,480
patriotic you just show him what the

2854
01:37:06,870 --> 01:37:04,480
deal is and he'll go oops sorry that's

2855
01:37:09,189 --> 01:37:06,880
not what i was looking for why would he

2856
01:37:10,950 --> 01:37:09,199
why would you have to go to this extreme

2857
01:37:12,790 --> 01:37:10,960
all these years that's right

2858
01:37:14,070 --> 01:37:12,800
yeah over something that you'd think if

2859
01:37:16,070 --> 01:37:14,080
they just went to either you or me and

2860
01:37:18,229 --> 01:37:16,080
said no no this is what you really saw

2861
01:37:20,229 --> 01:37:18,239
please help us out we'd be good with it

2862
01:37:22,070 --> 01:37:20,239
yeah it'd be i think he would have been

2863
01:37:23,510 --> 01:37:22,080
i think i think we have uh

2864
01:37:26,629 --> 01:37:23,520
we have andy on the line from

2865
01:37:29,590 --> 01:37:26,639
connecticut andy you're live on the air

2866
01:37:30,629 --> 01:37:29,600
hi uh my question is a two-part question

2867
01:37:31,590 --> 01:37:30,639
for chris

2868
01:37:33,830 --> 01:37:31,600
um

2869
01:37:36,070 --> 01:37:33,840
first uh have you ever heard any

2870
01:37:38,390 --> 01:37:36,080
discussion of uh the

2871
01:37:39,430 --> 01:37:38,400
uh superior office officers to chris

2872
01:37:40,709 --> 01:37:39,440
dodie

2873
01:37:43,590 --> 01:37:40,719
and uh

2874
01:37:46,550 --> 01:37:43,600
what culpability they may bear and what

2875
01:37:49,030 --> 01:37:46,560
happened with paul benowitz and then the

2876
01:37:51,590 --> 01:37:49,040
second question is uh

2877
01:37:53,990 --> 01:37:51,600
how do you square the fact that the air

2878
01:37:55,750 --> 01:37:54,000
force was doing this kind of thing but

2879
01:37:56,709 --> 01:37:55,760
that the same department of defense

2880
01:37:58,390 --> 01:37:56,719
today

2881
01:38:00,149 --> 01:37:58,400
is supposedly

2882
01:38:03,270 --> 01:38:00,159
not going after anyone else who is

2883
01:38:05,510 --> 01:38:03,280
coming forwards and uh i'll take your

2884
01:38:08,790 --> 01:38:05,520
answer off the air thank you

2885
01:38:10,790 --> 01:38:08,800
thank you andy very good questions um

2886
01:38:12,870 --> 01:38:10,800
there were

2887
01:38:14,470 --> 01:38:12,880
some

2888
01:38:16,870 --> 01:38:14,480
stories reports whatever you want to

2889
01:38:19,109 --> 01:38:16,880
call them about

2890
01:38:21,270 --> 01:38:19,119
other people maybe

2891
01:38:24,149 --> 01:38:21,280
above dodie but to my understanding i

2892
01:38:26,709 --> 01:38:24,159
don't think dodie has ever come out and

2893
01:38:28,310 --> 01:38:26,719
flat out laid the names of his superiors

2894
01:38:29,510 --> 01:38:28,320
i called him on the phone

2895
01:38:32,229 --> 01:38:29,520
i actually have spoken with dodie a

2896
01:38:33,910 --> 01:38:32,239
couple of times we're not very long and

2897
01:38:34,950 --> 01:38:33,920
friendly conversations but i called him

2898
01:38:37,430 --> 01:38:34,960
one time

2899
01:38:38,950 --> 01:38:37,440
and he implied especially even in the

2900
01:38:40,790 --> 01:38:38,960
case of when linda howe was there which

2901
01:38:42,470 --> 01:38:40,800
was this was well into the whole paul

2902
01:38:44,390 --> 01:38:42,480
benoit's time period

2903
01:38:46,470 --> 01:38:44,400
and making the statement that well two

2904
01:38:48,310 --> 01:38:46,480
of my supervisors

2905
01:38:49,669 --> 01:38:48,320
you know were

2906
01:38:51,590 --> 01:38:49,679
listening in on this and i said were

2907
01:38:53,590 --> 01:38:51,600
they in the room

2908
01:38:56,629 --> 01:38:53,600
and he kind of blocks and says

2909
01:38:58,790 --> 01:38:56,639
well one of them was outside the door

2910
01:39:01,270 --> 01:38:58,800
so clearly dodie was not in this himself

2911
01:39:03,030 --> 01:39:01,280
i mean the ideas and stories we've a few

2912
01:39:05,109 --> 01:39:03,040
times heard of him being some kind of a

2913
01:39:06,229 --> 01:39:05,119
rogue person doing this on his own

2914
01:39:08,550 --> 01:39:06,239
accord

2915
01:39:09,830 --> 01:39:08,560
totally fall apart because even from his

2916
01:39:11,350 --> 01:39:09,840
own words there were other people there

2917
01:39:13,750 --> 01:39:11,360
and he's mentioned other stories of

2918
01:39:17,109 --> 01:39:13,760
afosi agents going to you know ufo

2919
01:39:18,790 --> 01:39:17,119
conferences and doing whatnot there was

2920
01:39:20,550 --> 01:39:18,800
one person i don't recall top of my head

2921
01:39:21,910 --> 01:39:20,560
the name of the person somebody up above

2922
01:39:22,950 --> 01:39:21,920
that he had mentioned

2923
01:39:27,590 --> 01:39:22,960
but

2924
01:39:29,590 --> 01:39:27,600
real accounting for who was above dodie

2925
01:39:31,510 --> 01:39:29,600
calling the shots giving him the orders

2926
01:39:33,109 --> 01:39:31,520
and i think dodie's never come out and

2927
01:39:35,270 --> 01:39:33,119
acknowledged it

2928
01:39:36,709 --> 01:39:35,280
um and at the same point

2929
01:39:37,910 --> 01:39:36,719
not to bring up bill moore one more time

2930
01:39:39,109 --> 01:39:37,920
before we get the second part of the

2931
01:39:42,790 --> 01:39:39,119
question

2932
01:39:44,709 --> 01:39:42,800
but if bill had not been a willing and

2933
01:39:47,109 --> 01:39:44,719
willful and joyful participant in all of

2934
01:39:48,310 --> 01:39:47,119
this and he was going to be a writer

2935
01:39:50,229 --> 01:39:48,320
you would think he would have done like

2936
01:39:51,750 --> 01:39:50,239
any number of advisors do after they're

2937
01:39:53,030 --> 01:39:51,760
out of office right to the president you

2938
01:39:54,070 --> 01:39:53,040
write a book

2939
01:39:55,830 --> 01:39:54,080
bill could have come out written a

2940
01:39:57,669 --> 01:39:55,840
tell-all book and just

2941
01:40:00,229 --> 01:39:57,679
explained all of this

2942
01:40:01,990 --> 01:40:00,239
name names name everything

2943
01:40:04,070 --> 01:40:02,000
but to my knowledge bill's never written

2944
01:40:06,390 --> 01:40:04,080
another book at all so if he was an

2945
01:40:08,070 --> 01:40:06,400
artist coming i mean an author coming up

2946
01:40:09,430 --> 01:40:08,080
why didn't he just afterwards if he

2947
01:40:11,590 --> 01:40:09,440
didn't like the way he was treated if he

2948
01:40:13,590 --> 01:40:11,600
felt it was unfair if he didn't like

2949
01:40:15,750 --> 01:40:13,600
that dodie did this to him brought him

2950
01:40:17,590 --> 01:40:15,760
into it and now 10 years later in vegas

2951
01:40:19,990 --> 01:40:17,600
he's got to give this

2952
01:40:21,830 --> 01:40:20,000
supposed you know admission

2953
01:40:23,270 --> 01:40:21,840
and then he ducks out the door quick he

2954
01:40:24,470 --> 01:40:23,280
didn't hang around

2955
01:40:26,310 --> 01:40:24,480
he could have written another tell-all

2956
01:40:28,149 --> 01:40:26,320
book and made a fortune

2957
01:40:30,070 --> 01:40:28,159
but he hasn't so

2958
01:40:32,070 --> 01:40:30,080
i don't know once again there's dodie's

2959
01:40:33,669 --> 01:40:32,080
claimed he was cleared

2960
01:40:35,830 --> 01:40:33,679
a time at some point he apparently went

2961
01:40:37,109 --> 01:40:35,840
before congress years ago and was

2962
01:40:40,709 --> 01:40:37,119
exonerated

2963
01:40:42,709 --> 01:40:40,719
i know nothing about that i wasn't there

2964
01:40:45,350 --> 01:40:42,719
but then to this day

2965
01:40:47,189 --> 01:40:45,360
to go kind of to the second question

2966
01:40:51,270 --> 01:40:47,199
i think it is notable

2967
01:40:53,350 --> 01:40:51,280
that when the whole ufo topic suddenly

2968
01:40:55,430 --> 01:40:53,360
begins to seem legitimate in the last

2969
01:40:57,430 --> 01:40:55,440
four years

2970
01:40:59,430 --> 01:40:57,440
pretty quickly many people have seen the

2971
01:41:01,750 --> 01:40:59,440
letter where i think suga was writing to

2972
01:41:03,830 --> 01:41:01,760
the navy and saying

2973
01:41:06,470 --> 01:41:03,840
sorry i'm touching the table here then

2974
01:41:09,109 --> 01:41:06,480
that the air force has agreed to let

2975
01:41:11,510 --> 01:41:09,119
all their information go through suga

2976
01:41:13,109 --> 01:41:11,520
she'll be their spokesman

2977
01:41:14,470 --> 01:41:13,119
and that they recommend the navy do the

2978
01:41:15,590 --> 01:41:14,480
same thing and i guess the navy has done

2979
01:41:16,950 --> 01:41:15,600
it and now

2980
01:41:18,709 --> 01:41:16,960
both services

2981
01:41:20,709 --> 01:41:18,719
don't have to say a word

2982
01:41:23,109 --> 01:41:20,719
and when they go back and do this recent

2983
01:41:25,430 --> 01:41:23,119
180 day report

2984
01:41:27,189 --> 01:41:25,440
wasn't it convenient that rather than

2985
01:41:28,870 --> 01:41:27,199
looking at the history of this phenomena

2986
01:41:31,430 --> 01:41:28,880
where there is a whole lot that should

2987
01:41:33,910 --> 01:41:31,440
be included valid information

2988
01:41:35,990 --> 01:41:33,920
they just go to the nimitz case 2004 as

2989
01:41:37,910 --> 01:41:36,000
though anything before that

2990
01:41:39,430 --> 01:41:37,920
is somehow

2991
01:41:40,950 --> 01:41:39,440
off the books you're right it doesn't

2992
01:41:43,030 --> 01:41:40,960
need to be touched

2993
01:41:44,310 --> 01:41:43,040
but i do think let's face it in the case

2994
01:41:45,669 --> 01:41:44,320
of

2995
01:41:47,669 --> 01:41:45,679
whoever was

2996
01:41:49,270 --> 01:41:47,679
giving dodie his orders

2997
01:41:51,189 --> 01:41:49,280
and whoever's been giving the orders

2998
01:41:53,830 --> 01:41:51,199
from above so that you have the guy down

2999
01:41:55,750 --> 01:41:53,840
below having to take the heat

3000
01:41:58,470 --> 01:41:55,760
there should be some accounting for that

3001
01:41:59,669 --> 01:41:58,480
and i think congress unfortunately

3002
01:42:01,430 --> 01:41:59,679
i don't know whether the people that are

3003
01:42:02,950 --> 01:42:01,440
really in congress now

3004
01:42:04,870 --> 01:42:02,960
have got a whole lot of background

3005
01:42:06,149 --> 01:42:04,880
information on this subject

3006
01:42:08,149 --> 01:42:06,159
and

3007
01:42:09,590 --> 01:42:08,159
you know so how do they even know

3008
01:42:10,870 --> 01:42:09,600
and if they're going to their advisors

3009
01:42:12,709 --> 01:42:10,880
or people and they're only getting what

3010
01:42:14,149 --> 01:42:12,719
they're getting

3011
01:42:15,430 --> 01:42:14,159
maybe they don't even know you know i

3012
01:42:16,629 --> 01:42:15,440
mean i don't know how many of them would

3013
01:42:18,550 --> 01:42:16,639
really even know what we're talking

3014
01:42:20,070 --> 01:42:18,560
about here

3015
01:42:22,470 --> 01:42:20,080
so i don't know whether there's going to

3016
01:42:24,629 --> 01:42:22,480
be any accounting for it at all

3017
01:42:26,390 --> 01:42:24,639
you know you you wonder if

3018
01:42:29,109 --> 01:42:26,400
any of them

3019
01:42:31,590 --> 01:42:29,119
are looking into this topic

3020
01:42:34,229 --> 01:42:31,600
you know kind of like we do

3021
01:42:37,270 --> 01:42:34,239
if any one of those people involved is

3022
01:42:41,590 --> 01:42:37,280
looking not just at the raw data but

3023
01:42:43,750 --> 01:42:41,600
looking into it in outside sources

3024
01:42:45,109 --> 01:42:43,760
well it seems to me if you've got even

3025
01:42:47,510 --> 01:42:45,119
just this history that we've been

3026
01:42:49,189 --> 01:42:47,520
talking about since 1980

3027
01:42:51,350 --> 01:42:49,199
there's clear evidence

3028
01:42:52,870 --> 01:42:51,360
that somewhere

3029
01:42:55,030 --> 01:42:52,880
behind the scenes

3030
01:42:57,350 --> 01:42:55,040
there have been people calling the shots

3031
01:42:58,229 --> 01:42:57,360
calling the strings giving the orders

3032
01:43:01,430 --> 01:42:58,239
i mean

3033
01:43:02,310 --> 01:43:01,440
and in an effort to defuse or to at

3034
01:43:04,709 --> 01:43:02,320
least

3035
01:43:07,350 --> 01:43:04,719
confuse and obstruct

3036
01:43:08,870 --> 01:43:07,360
people who like me like whoever who are

3037
01:43:11,270 --> 01:43:08,880
making an effort to to find this

3038
01:43:13,109 --> 01:43:11,280
information out there was a famous case

3039
01:43:14,470 --> 01:43:13,119
that i think stan friedman and bill

3040
01:43:16,709 --> 01:43:14,480
moore when bill stan friedman was

3041
01:43:17,830 --> 01:43:16,719
looking into the 1980 cases where he had

3042
01:43:19,590 --> 01:43:17,840
been trying to get information from

3043
01:43:21,030 --> 01:43:19,600
afosi headquarters

3044
01:43:22,790 --> 01:43:21,040
and they said they didn't have anything

3045
01:43:24,550 --> 01:43:22,800
and at one point he decided he's going

3046
01:43:27,270 --> 01:43:24,560
to write to each base because apparently

3047
01:43:28,950 --> 01:43:27,280
all those records were kept on each base

3048
01:43:29,910 --> 01:43:28,960
so he's like well no wonder headquarters

3049
01:43:31,350 --> 01:43:29,920
doesn't have anything they were kind of

3050
01:43:33,430 --> 01:43:31,360
just a clearing house

3051
01:43:35,270 --> 01:43:33,440
so he tells the guy at the base that i'm

3052
01:43:36,229 --> 01:43:35,280
going to write to each of the he tells

3053
01:43:38,390 --> 01:43:36,239
the guy at the headquarters i'm going to

3054
01:43:40,709 --> 01:43:38,400
write to the bases and before he can do

3055
01:43:42,229 --> 01:43:40,719
it it came out through fya the guide

3056
01:43:43,750 --> 01:43:42,239
headquarters writes to the bases and

3057
01:43:46,310 --> 01:43:43,760
says if you get a request from stan

3058
01:43:47,669 --> 01:43:46,320
friedman do not answer him refer him

3059
01:43:50,550 --> 01:43:47,679
back to the base

3060
01:43:52,470 --> 01:43:50,560
so how about direct interference

3061
01:43:54,229 --> 01:43:52,480
and yeah i don't know some something

3062
01:43:56,950 --> 01:43:54,239
tells me the people who've been keeping

3063
01:43:58,629 --> 01:43:56,960
this quiet are either

3064
01:44:00,310 --> 01:43:58,639
making sure they're covered right they

3065
01:44:01,430 --> 01:44:00,320
gotta get out of jail free card when the

3066
01:44:03,910 --> 01:44:01,440
time comes

3067
01:44:05,590 --> 01:44:03,920
or they're wanting some exoneration you

3068
01:44:07,270 --> 01:44:05,600
know statute of limitations whatever you

3069
01:44:09,270 --> 01:44:07,280
can think of

3070
01:44:11,510 --> 01:44:09,280
and i'm not after

3071
01:44:13,830 --> 01:44:11,520
sending anybody you know maybe we need

3072
01:44:14,629 --> 01:44:13,840
to do like south africa and have the you

3073
01:44:16,870 --> 01:44:14,639
know

3074
01:44:19,109 --> 01:44:16,880
the reconciliation kind of thing at

3075
01:44:21,430 --> 01:44:19,119
least be honest tell us what was going

3076
01:44:23,189 --> 01:44:21,440
on and why so we know

3077
01:44:25,990 --> 01:44:23,199
what happened even if you don't send

3078
01:44:27,030 --> 01:44:26,000
anybody to jail because

3079
01:44:28,310 --> 01:44:27,040
maybe they thought it was the right

3080
01:44:29,350 --> 01:44:28,320
thing at the time they did it that's

3081
01:44:32,629 --> 01:44:29,360
fine

3082
01:44:35,669 --> 01:44:32,639
but when you're deceiving and misleading

3083
01:44:37,590 --> 01:44:35,679
the public people out here

3084
01:44:39,030 --> 01:44:37,600
when from what everything i've read most

3085
01:44:40,790 --> 01:44:39,040
people who've been in this know the

3086
01:44:41,990 --> 01:44:40,800
public's not going to just

3087
01:44:43,270 --> 01:44:42,000
flip out

3088
01:44:45,510 --> 01:44:43,280
and most of the public has no idea what

3089
01:44:47,030 --> 01:44:45,520
we're talking about anyway so that's

3090
01:44:48,310 --> 01:44:47,040
right those of us who really care enough

3091
01:44:49,830 --> 01:44:48,320
to know about it that would end up being

3092
01:44:51,109 --> 01:44:49,840
the ones who are told what's going on

3093
01:44:55,669 --> 01:44:51,119
and

3094
01:44:56,870 --> 01:44:55,679
you know a whole lot of let down because

3095
01:44:59,590 --> 01:44:56,880
we just have to sit and wait till the

3096
01:45:01,270 --> 01:44:59,600
next you know incident that occurs

3097
01:45:03,189 --> 01:45:01,280
but i think it would be

3098
01:45:05,109 --> 01:45:03,199
it would behoove the people in congress

3099
01:45:06,550 --> 01:45:05,119
who are now claiming you know gilbert

3100
01:45:08,550 --> 01:45:06,560
some of the others

3101
01:45:10,870 --> 01:45:08,560
to try to reach out to some

3102
01:45:12,390 --> 01:45:10,880
people out here who have these bits of

3103
01:45:13,830 --> 01:45:12,400
information and at least get the

3104
01:45:15,590 --> 01:45:13,840
documentation

3105
01:45:18,149 --> 01:45:15,600
you know to to know to ask about it or

3106
01:45:20,470 --> 01:45:18,159
have something done with it but anyway

3107
01:45:21,830 --> 01:45:20,480
sorry um well i know that we wanted to

3108
01:45:23,830 --> 01:45:21,840
talk about

3109
01:45:25,910 --> 01:45:23,840
uh maybe we just don't have time we have

3110
01:45:27,669 --> 01:45:25,920
another caller on the line we i think we

3111
01:45:29,270 --> 01:45:27,679
only got about five minutes left so we

3112
01:45:30,709 --> 01:45:29,280
don't have a lot of time maybe best not

3113
01:45:32,390 --> 01:45:30,719
to touch that for now

3114
01:45:34,229 --> 01:45:32,400
i guess right because that's a kind of a

3115
01:45:36,709 --> 01:45:34,239
deep subject and i'll just take it out

3116
01:45:39,030 --> 01:45:36,719
of the show information we have johnny

3117
01:45:41,189 --> 01:45:39,040
uh from portland oregon johnny you're

3118
01:45:43,350 --> 01:45:41,199
live on the air

3119
01:45:45,910 --> 01:45:43,360
hi martin hi my christian hi welcome to

3120
01:45:50,390 --> 01:45:48,310
um yeah what do you know if anything

3121
01:45:53,350 --> 01:45:50,400
about phil schneider his story about an

3122
01:45:54,950 --> 01:45:53,360
underground alien base at dulce and

3123
01:45:58,149 --> 01:45:54,960
whatever became of him after he began

3124
01:46:00,790 --> 01:45:58,159
speaking public about the uh if you have

3125
01:46:01,750 --> 01:46:00,800
any knowledge about that thank you

3126
01:46:04,709 --> 01:46:01,760
um

3127
01:46:07,669 --> 01:46:04,719
i actually have kind of

3128
01:46:09,350 --> 01:46:07,679
i kind of go with my own internal radar

3129
01:46:10,950 --> 01:46:09,360
and discernment when i hear some of

3130
01:46:13,590 --> 01:46:10,960
those things that i know a little bit

3131
01:46:15,270 --> 01:46:13,600
about especially the fact that ninety

3132
01:46:17,030 --> 01:46:15,280
percent ninety-nine percent of the whole

3133
01:46:19,430 --> 01:46:17,040
story of underground bases

3134
01:46:21,910 --> 01:46:19,440
dulce was bunk

3135
01:46:23,510 --> 01:46:21,920
but then we have people that come out

3136
01:46:25,189 --> 01:46:23,520
and decide to

3137
01:46:26,390 --> 01:46:25,199
peddle their wares their stories just

3138
01:46:27,430 --> 01:46:26,400
like we have some of them out there

3139
01:46:30,070 --> 01:46:27,440
today

3140
01:46:31,990 --> 01:46:30,080
and capitalize on it and in many cases

3141
01:46:34,629 --> 01:46:32,000
you'll find there's an entire

3142
01:46:35,669 --> 01:46:34,639
underground segment of ufology if i can

3143
01:46:38,950 --> 01:46:35,679
call it that

3144
01:46:42,550 --> 01:46:38,960
that share an interest in that type of

3145
01:46:44,629 --> 01:46:42,560
almost uh malevolent alien

3146
01:46:47,030 --> 01:46:44,639
doing underground body and they have

3147
01:46:48,629 --> 01:46:47,040
their own conferences so

3148
01:46:50,709 --> 01:46:48,639
what can you say right i mean there was

3149
01:46:52,390 --> 01:46:50,719
a woman i can't replace her name right

3150
01:46:54,070 --> 01:46:52,400
now who was actually

3151
01:46:56,550 --> 01:46:54,080
from up here in dallas when i lived in

3152
01:46:58,229 --> 01:46:56,560
denton who went on to become

3153
01:46:59,990 --> 01:46:58,239
one of the women who was frequented

3154
01:47:02,310 --> 01:47:00,000
these kinds of conferences

3155
01:47:04,470 --> 01:47:02,320
and i just stumbled into her before she

3156
01:47:07,109 --> 01:47:04,480
got into any of it but then later on

3157
01:47:09,669 --> 01:47:07,119
when i hear what she's doing and talking

3158
01:47:11,669 --> 01:47:09,679
about and going there

3159
01:47:13,830 --> 01:47:11,679
i realized back when i first met her and

3160
01:47:15,590 --> 01:47:13,840
she was having some kind of experiences

3161
01:47:17,910 --> 01:47:15,600
and i just had asked something as simple

3162
01:47:18,870 --> 01:47:17,920
as did you ever think of just putting a

3163
01:47:20,229 --> 01:47:18,880
camera

3164
01:47:22,310 --> 01:47:20,239
out there where you might get a clip of

3165
01:47:23,109 --> 01:47:22,320
it or you know tie us tie thread to your

3166
01:47:24,950 --> 01:47:23,119
toe

3167
01:47:26,229 --> 01:47:24,960
so if if it's broken in the morning you

3168
01:47:29,189 --> 01:47:26,239
at least you know any little thing you

3169
01:47:31,270 --> 01:47:29,199
can think of to try to substantiate

3170
01:47:32,870 --> 01:47:31,280
is something happening and it was like

3171
01:47:34,310 --> 01:47:32,880
the response is like no you know i never

3172
01:47:36,390 --> 01:47:34,320
really considered that

3173
01:47:38,709 --> 01:47:36,400
and that's when i realized

3174
01:47:41,189 --> 01:47:38,719
it's more exciting to not do that

3175
01:47:42,709 --> 01:47:41,199
to not have to try to verify

3176
01:47:43,910 --> 01:47:42,719
and in the case of phil schneider i

3177
01:47:45,669 --> 01:47:43,920
don't recall what happened to him i'm

3178
01:47:47,669 --> 01:47:45,679
not so sure that i heard her read

3179
01:47:50,870 --> 01:47:47,679
somewhere he'd finally passed away

3180
01:47:53,350 --> 01:47:50,880
but oh yeah he was supposedly yeah under

3181
01:47:54,149 --> 01:47:53,360
suspicious suspicious circumstances but

3182
01:47:56,950 --> 01:47:54,159
you know

3183
01:47:58,790 --> 01:47:56,960
for my part though i think

3184
01:48:01,510 --> 01:47:58,800
it was

3185
01:48:04,390 --> 01:48:01,520
more people who found it exciting to be

3186
01:48:06,390 --> 01:48:04,400
a an experiencer in something you know

3187
01:48:07,830 --> 01:48:06,400
in that pond of people who

3188
01:48:09,669 --> 01:48:07,840
love that kind of thing it's the belief

3189
01:48:11,189 --> 01:48:09,679
thing all over again martin people have

3190
01:48:13,109 --> 01:48:11,199
their own beliefs and it's exciting and

3191
01:48:14,870 --> 01:48:13,119
it gives them something to

3192
01:48:16,229 --> 01:48:14,880
believe they have a purpose in life with

3193
01:48:18,470 --> 01:48:16,239
and

3194
01:48:20,070 --> 01:48:18,480
you know sometimes you just

3195
01:48:22,390 --> 01:48:20,080
i don't go to those conferences let's

3196
01:48:24,070 --> 01:48:22,400
just put it that way yeah

3197
01:48:25,430 --> 01:48:24,080
hey uh johnny thanks so much for the

3198
01:48:27,109 --> 01:48:25,440
call

3199
01:48:29,430 --> 01:48:27,119
thank you gentlemen good night thank you

3200
01:48:31,510 --> 01:48:29,440
all right have a good night yeah

3201
01:48:32,390 --> 01:48:31,520
so yeah we only have we only have about

3202
01:48:35,910 --> 01:48:32,400
three minutes

3203
01:48:37,350 --> 01:48:35,920
so yeah um well it's really fascinating

3204
01:48:39,590 --> 01:48:37,360
and

3205
01:48:41,030 --> 01:48:39,600
you know again we keep going back to

3206
01:48:43,910 --> 01:48:41,040
this belief thing

3207
01:48:46,149 --> 01:48:43,920
you know uh because there are so many

3208
01:48:47,669 --> 01:48:46,159
segments there are i've said this a

3209
01:48:48,870 --> 01:48:47,679
number of times in the show there are so

3210
01:48:52,070 --> 01:48:48,880
many things

3211
01:48:54,390 --> 01:48:52,080
that we can almost make into reality in

3212
01:48:56,950 --> 01:48:54,400
other words there's the false story i i

3213
01:48:58,310 --> 01:48:56,960
use a lot of times alexander the great

3214
01:49:00,629 --> 01:48:58,320
supposedly

3215
01:49:02,550 --> 01:49:00,639
had a ufo sighting

3216
01:49:05,510 --> 01:49:02,560
you know but when you trace it back it

3217
01:49:07,030 --> 01:49:05,520
goes back to 1952 to a book it was in

3218
01:49:09,669 --> 01:49:07,040
and that's as far back as you can go

3219
01:49:12,390 --> 01:49:09,679
with it so but a lot of times these

3220
01:49:15,270 --> 01:49:12,400
things will become reality in a lot of

3221
01:49:17,750 --> 01:49:15,280
people's minds you know as as we go on

3222
01:49:20,629 --> 01:49:17,760
the story over and over again there is a

3223
01:49:21,510 --> 01:49:20,639
big advantage if i can call it that

3224
01:49:23,189 --> 01:49:21,520
with

3225
01:49:25,750 --> 01:49:23,199
having been around

3226
01:49:27,510 --> 01:49:25,760
a long time that you've seen a thing too

3227
01:49:28,390 --> 01:49:27,520
you've you get better discernment

3228
01:49:30,149 --> 01:49:28,400
hopefully

3229
01:49:32,550 --> 01:49:30,159
you also have a lot more information

3230
01:49:33,589 --> 01:49:32,560
about background incidental things

3231
01:49:35,750 --> 01:49:33,599
and

3232
01:49:38,310 --> 01:49:35,760
in my case maybe i've got some good

3233
01:49:40,390 --> 01:49:38,320
friends who are very insightful

3234
01:49:43,350 --> 01:49:40,400
and then it comes we didn't get into the

3235
01:49:44,470 --> 01:49:43,360
whole issue with assab a tip o usdi that

3236
01:49:46,870 --> 01:49:44,480
sort of thing

3237
01:49:49,830 --> 01:49:46,880
but it becomes a matter of if you care

3238
01:49:52,709 --> 01:49:49,840
enough to dig to just write and ask

3239
01:49:54,709 --> 01:49:52,719
somebody straight up

3240
01:49:56,950 --> 01:49:54,719
then you find information that at least

3241
01:49:58,790 --> 01:49:56,960
gives you a better chance to

3242
01:50:00,870 --> 01:49:58,800
be more certain what you think not

3243
01:50:02,950 --> 01:50:00,880
everybody does that not everybody really

3244
01:50:05,270 --> 01:50:02,960
bothers to decide i'm going to go double

3245
01:50:07,990 --> 01:50:05,280
check my own ideas because maybe they

3246
01:50:09,030 --> 01:50:08,000
don't really care and i get it

3247
01:50:10,709 --> 01:50:09,040
and then

3248
01:50:12,550 --> 01:50:10,719
there's also a block a lot of people

3249
01:50:14,870 --> 01:50:12,560
have a block and i can tend to have a

3250
01:50:15,750 --> 01:50:14,880
block too like oh i don't know how to do

3251
01:50:18,550 --> 01:50:15,760
that

3252
01:50:20,790 --> 01:50:18,560
um but i'm not going to but you can find

3253
01:50:22,390 --> 01:50:20,800
out how to do it all you have to do is

3254
01:50:25,189 --> 01:50:22,400
talk to someone that does you know a

3255
01:50:27,510 --> 01:50:25,199
foyer for instance be kind and i have to

3256
01:50:29,669 --> 01:50:27,520
tell you later you know just ask yeah

3257
01:50:31,350 --> 01:50:29,679
right that's what i do that's right

3258
01:50:33,669 --> 01:50:31,360
that's yeah what i did with douglas

3259
01:50:34,790 --> 01:50:33,679
curth i did that with jesse marcel you

3260
01:50:36,310 --> 01:50:34,800
just

3261
01:50:37,910 --> 01:50:36,320
pick up a phone find their number it's a

3262
01:50:39,669 --> 01:50:37,920
lot easier these days than it was back

3263
01:50:41,270 --> 01:50:39,679
then find the number yeah that's your

3264
01:50:43,669 --> 01:50:41,280
call and be nice and say hey i'm just

3265
01:50:45,270 --> 01:50:43,679
so-and-so i did this with lonnie zamora

3266
01:50:46,470 --> 01:50:45,280
and he said well most people call him

3267
01:50:47,589 --> 01:50:46,480
and they were kind of crazy you didn't

3268
01:50:48,709 --> 01:50:47,599
see it blah blah

3269
01:50:50,629 --> 01:50:48,719
but i

3270
01:50:52,470 --> 01:50:50,639
was at least doing some artwork and i

3271
01:50:54,550 --> 01:50:52,480
talked to him and it turned out terrific

3272
01:50:56,149 --> 01:50:54,560
very very nice most people are willing

3273
01:50:56,870 --> 01:50:56,159
to help and be polite

3274
01:50:58,470 --> 01:50:56,880
you know

3275
01:51:00,470 --> 01:50:58,480
douglas kurth read me the little riot

3276
01:51:02,149 --> 01:51:00,480
act but he was decent i have respect for

3277
01:51:04,550 --> 01:51:02,159
the guy he answered me yeah because i

3278
01:51:05,990 --> 01:51:04,560
just took the chance but you have to ask

3279
01:51:07,430 --> 01:51:06,000
the question if you're going to even ask

3280
01:51:09,510 --> 01:51:07,440
that's right

3281
01:51:11,510 --> 01:51:09,520
chris thank you so much it's been a real

3282
01:51:12,390 --> 01:51:11,520
pleasure as always you're a good friend

3283
01:51:16,470 --> 01:51:12,400
and

3284
01:51:18,390 --> 01:51:16,480
this we'll talk soon

3285
01:51:20,709 --> 01:51:18,400
yeah yeah we'll have it after all the

3286
01:51:22,149 --> 01:51:20,719
others all right thanks take care good

3287
01:51:23,669 --> 01:51:22,159
night all right everyone all right good

3288
01:51:25,910 --> 01:51:23,679
night all right everyone so that's it

3289
01:51:28,709 --> 01:51:25,920
for the show this evening and next week

3290
01:51:30,870 --> 01:51:28,719
as i said we have uh ufo jane from texas

3291
01:51:32,709 --> 01:51:30,880
she's going to be on the show thanks so

3292
01:51:35,590 --> 01:51:32,719
much and remember to keep your eyes to

3293
01:51:44,900 --> 01:51:35,600
the sky